Talk:Sarum Use/Archive 1

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Well, technically it isn't a tradition of the pre-Schism West, as Sarum Cathedral was dedicated in 1092, and the Sarum as known from the texts dates from New Salisbury in the 13th c. That it is essentially no different than Pre-Schism Frankish and Celtic-Saxon Roman traditions is witnessed to by contemporaries, but the Use itself is definitely post-Schism. All surviving documents of the Sarum use are post-LePoore, in fact.

Noted. --Rdr. Andrew 21:27, 24 Mar 2005 (CST)

Another minor point: the "Old Sarum Rite" is not a version of the Sarum use of the Roman rite. Its relationship is unclear and tenuous to Sarum at this point. If one compares merely the ritual (the printed text) there are many anomalies and differences with the "Old Sarum Rite" that distinguish it from the Sarum Use. Anglo-Roman is a better classification for this rite, as it is in English and is basically a Roman rite. However, its sources vary widely and retain not enough Sarum material to even be considered a 'version'. The ceremonial and much of the rite is based upon finding Byzantine analogues in Western customs that were either quite singular, irregular, or modern misinterpretations of antique material. The wording I used originally was to precisely note this relationship... it is not a version, but a new rite of its own that has never been served outside of the past few decades, and then only in the USA. It is a work of liturgical archaeology, and has not been vetted by liturgists with experience in Western Rite towards whether it does (or can) do what it purports to represent: Anglo-Saxon liturgy of the 9th c. - Aristibule

Please feel free to note all this information in the article. By using "version," I didn't mean to imply that it was taken from the non-"Old" Sarum Use.--Rdr. Andrew 17:49, 8 Apr 2005 (EDT)

I would suggest a revert from the February 20, 2006 edit by YBeayf - far from a 'incorrect sentence', the lineage of the English Orthodox liturgies (St. Tikhon's AWRV and the English Rite ROCOR) goes back through both the Scottish-American BCP and English BCP traditions. The former tradition is rooted in the latter, which in itself is a heavily edited version of the Henrician Sarum (the Sarum rite with some items in English, the removal of references to the Papacy, and some later saints.) If someone is going to make a change based upon something being incorrect, they should provide an argument for the 'why' of it. However, we know the liturgical tradition in England went from a multitude of local Cathedral uses, to a majority using Sarum or Sarum-based liturgy, to the direction for Sarum to be used by all churches, to the Henrician Sarum, then to the first BCP based upon the work of the former. The BCP tradition also borrowed elements from other Eastern and Western rites at that time, but there is no reason to believe that its primary source was anything other than the Henrician Sarum already approved for use by the same Convocation. - Aristibule07:13, 22 Feb 2006.

No, the English BCP communion service is not rooted in the Sarum mass. It of course contains some of the same elements, but consists of portions common to all Western liturgies combined with texts and rubrics made up from whole cloth by Cranmer. The BCP communion service was not a continuation of the Sarum rite, but a new, thoroughly Protestantized service with a few bits filched from the authentic Catholic rite of England. YBeayf 14:51, March 2, 2006 (CST)
It seems, to an outsider, that both sides may have justification to their position. Perhaps both views, with their supporting evidence, should be noted in the article (as 'contention', for instance)? -- — by Pιsτévο talk complaints at 18:17, March 3, 2006 (CST)
One supposes, then one will have to make allowance for all sorts of silliness by way of 'contention'. The facts are that the Sarum Use had become the sole use of England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales on the Eve of the Reformation. During the reign of Henry VIII it was edited both for removal of all references to the Papacy, later Roman Catholic saints, and the first translations into English. The First Prayer Book was primarily based upon this use (which was the use of the realm), along with scholarly materials (Lutheran, Spanish, and Oriental liturgies), and the work of Convocation. Cranmer only had a part, not being the primary author of the first BCP, but the second BCP. The 'silliness' comes from the contention that the bulk of the BCP tradition's source material, being the Roman rite, is *not* from the Sarum use when it would have been near impossible to have been from anything else (particularly the 1570 Roman Mass, as the recent weblore has it from those who try to claim no connection between the Sarum Use and the Prayer Book tradition.) It also does not take into account the variety in what is called Sarum Use - a recent blog post by a newly ordained anti-WRO ECUSA minister seems to be the origin of all this 'contention', based upon his comparison of a single version of the ordinary of the Sarum Use with the 1549 BCP, and not taking into account at all the Henrician Sarum (which also contain some of the same deletions as found in the 1549 BCP.) I should also point out that the various Prayer Books changed over time - Rome still considered the Henrician Sarum and 1549 BCP to be 'Catholic rites'. The 1552 BCP, being what Cranmer wanted to begin with (but couldn't get past Convocation on the first try), and later English versions that restored what 1552 deleted still are in the lineage of the 1549 and Sarum. Even the Scottish liturgy, though it was far more changed by further contemporary scholarship; particularly as to the liturgy of St. Clement and St. James. Ari 16:12, March 7, 2006 (CST)

One last point on 'YBeayfs criticisms. He calls the BCP 1549 "Protestantized service with a few bits filched from the authentic Catholic rite of England." Of course, the authentic Catholic rite of England *is* the Sarum Use. It had been the majority use for 300 years previously (as well as Ireland and Scotland.) As for 'Protestantized', of course, but to be '-ized', one has to have an original to changed. That original would be - the sole authentic Catholic rite readily available to the English: the Sarum Use. Ari 16:22, March 7, 2006 (CST)

No, I didn't say that. I said "English BCP communion service", without specifying a year. The 1549 Book of Common Prayer is not what first comes to mind to most people when one mentions the "BCP".
I have not seen this blog posting which you reference; rest assured that any contention here is purely of my own making. My objection to saying the BCP (post-1552) is rooted in the Sarum usage of the Roman rite is that the essence of the mass, the offertory and canon, are changed beyond recognition. Of course the general structure of the BCP service mirrors the Sarum usage, but it is IMO rather tendentious to claim this roots the BCP service in the Sarum usage when the most important parts of the Sarum are not carried over, and the framework of the BCP service and the Sarum usage are common to all Latin rites. Nevertheless, I will cease fighting to have that sentence removed. I have, however, added a small clarification, which I hope will be allowed to stand. YBeayf 17:42, March 8, 2006 (CST)
This " that the creators of the Book of Common Prayer used the Sarum missal as a springboard for their reformed liturgy." is not a clarification, but simply redundant repetition of 'primary origin with Sarum use'. They say the exact same thing, but without the colloquialism of 'springboard'. I'm not sure what one means by 'most important parts of the Sarum', but it doesn't change the fact of *primary origin*. See: for a chart describing the origins of the rites. The ROCOR English Use is from the 1549 BCP with restorations according to Sarum, York, the Gothic Missal. Answering Fr. Lev's post, the lineage of the St. Tikhon's is not all that far removed. The American 1928 BCP was a more catholicized form of the earlier American Prayer Book, that tradition having its origin with the Scottish Non-Juror liturgy (that which Seabury brought from Scotland to America). The Scottish Non-Jurors use not only had the indirect source of Laud's prayer book, but also has evidence of using the 1549 BCP, Sarum, and other uses (especially the contemporary translations of the liturgies of St. Clement, St. James, etc.) More below... Ari 11:41, March 12, 2006 (CST)
No, they don't say the same thing. One implies that the BCP tradition was a simple continuation of the Sarum. The other makes it clear that there was a break, and that the creators of the BCP used the Sarum rite as a template for their own, reformed, heretical liturgy. YBeayf 22:26, March 12, 2006 (CST)
That is reading more into the syntax than is there. 'Primary origin' is precisely what it is. Ari 23:58, March 13, 2006 (CST)

The Book of Common Prayer and Sarum

The Liturgy of St Tikhon used in the AWRV is based upon the 1928 Book of Common Prayer of the Episcopal Church, which is quite a distance from the first BCP,the English Prayer Book of 1549. When some thought the 1549 patient of a Catholic interpretation, Cranmer revised it in 1552 to exclude such Catholic interpretation. Under Queen Elizabeth I, who desperately wanted unity in her kingdom, the 1559 edition came out as a compromise book that would be something between the "Catholic" 1549 and the "Protestant" 1552.

Four centuries later, the American BCP of 1928 had precious little that could be said to partake in the heritage of the pre-Reformation Sarum. A goodly amount of the Liturgy of St Tikhon is borrowed from the Tridentine. This is not in any way a criticism of the AWRV usage -- I am simply saying that the historical connections between the Liturgy of St Tikhon and Sarum are pretty thin. --Fr Lev 21:29, March 8, 2006 (CST)

The 1552, and 1559 editions have nothing to do with the Orthodox Prayer Book derived liturgies. And important point to note with the American 1928 is that it doesn't have 'more distance' between it, but returns far closer to older forms than intervening American BCPs. Saying 'pretty thin' and 'precious little' are pov, while the fact that the 1928 American BCP has a lineage with a primary origin in the Sarum Use of the Roman rite is non-pov. Ari 11:41, March 12, 2006 (CST)

In the first place, since this is a "talk" page, I would assume that one may express a POV. Second, Ari's proitests not withstanding, the American 1928 is part of the tradition of the 1552, 1559, etc. A simple and example: the 1928 uses the compromise 1559 formula for administering communion. The 1549 used "The body of our Lorde Jesus Christe whiche was geven for thee, preserve thy bodye and soule unto everlasting lyfe." In order to deny the Real Presence, the 1552 was changed to: "Take and eate this, in remembraunce that Christ dyed for thee, and feede on him in thy hearte by faythe, with thankesgeving." Queen Elizabeth's 1559 version, which was designed to be a book that both "Catholic" and "Protestant" Anglicans could use, simply put the two contradictory formulas together: "The bodie of our lord Jesu Christ, which was geven for the, preserve thy body and soule into everlastinge life: and take and eate this in remembraunce that Christ died for thee, feede on him in thine heart by faith, with thankesgevynge." And this is what you find in the 1928: "The Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, which was given for thee, preserve thy body and soul unto everlasting life. Take and eat this in remembrance that Christ died for thee, and feed on him in thy heart by faith, with thanksgiving." Third, this can't fairly be described as POV -- it simply reflects the scholarship on the Anglican Prayer Book tradition. One could point out other such differences. One more that comes to mind is that the Psalter of the 1928 moved even further away from the LXX in favor of the Masoretic Texts. It is simply false to claim that the 1928 has its primary origin in Sarum. --Fr Lev 12:40, March 12, 2006 (CST)

It is no false claim - the lineage is clear, and the BCP tradition as a whole descends from the Sarum Use of the Roman rite. It really isn't that difficult a concept. That the American BCP is further down the line isn't the contention: of course it is. However, ultimately the trail leads back to the Sarum Use.... in the case of the American BCP tradition, through the Scottish BCP tradition, the Non-Jurors liturgy, etc. And - most importantly, whomever 'Fr Lev' is he is conflating the Orthodox Prayer Book derived liturgies with the American 1928 BCP: they are not one and the same. Ari 23:58, March 13, 2006 (CST)

I suppose it is some small sign of progress that Ari has gone from saying "And important point to note with the American 1928 is that it doesn't have 'more distance' between it, but returns far closer to older forms than intervening American BCPs" above to now acknowledging the 1928 to be "further down the line." Yes, there are a number of influences and sources in the 1928 revision, but it is far removed from Sarum in text and theology. I gave a very specific example of how the theology of real presence was watered down after the 1549 through the formula for administering communion. That, at least, was reparied in the SASB version. But the St Tikhon liturgy of the SASB was based firstly on the 1928 BCP (as are many other elements of the SASB). --Fr Lev 08:52, March 14, 2006 (CST)

I think this is some good conversation, with some very interesting detail. Just a word to keep things civil - please avoid ad hominem attacks like "whoever so-and-so is" -- these aren't necessary or helpful! Let's focus on history and fact, presenting arguments based on evidence. Please provide as full citations as possible. The talk page is the proper place to note POV's and divergences of opinion.
Finally, I'm not sure why Western Rite topics are some of the most contentious on the wiki. From the outside, it doesn't seem like much of a big deal. Authenticity doesn't need to be based on an esoteric historical trail of influence, but follows episcopal blessing and acceptance by the Church. Then again, I don't have a personal stake in any of this, and I realize WR people may feel that they are fighting hard to keep alive a particular vision of the catholicity of the Church. Peace to you! — FrJohn (talk)
Fr. John, the issue is that what we have is outsiders here presenting a view that is rather political (and not academic - I am presenting an academic view, and most often the current state of scholarship, as well as the actual use of the Western Rite Orthodox.) The goal of these constant re-edits seem to be the smearing of the Western Rite as actually used in the Church, and arguments towards its replacement. Hence the focus on the 'SASB' (again, not the book the Metropolitan, Vicariate, or Liturgical Commission have insisted as the 'official texts' repeatedly), and rather ignorant statements on our ROCOR Western Rite use as well (which at present includes not only Sarum and Benedictine Roman uses, but BCP derived English use, and the Neo-Gallican approved under St. John the Wonderworker). As such, these are acts of vandalism - which brings back to another point I think we've made before - that anonymity is unhelpful to this project, and the importance of veracity of sources. Ari 23:06, March 26, 2006 (CST)
If you're referring to me in this paragraph, you're way off-base. I'm a huge proponent of the Western Rite; I merely strongly dislike Anglican usage (hey, I'm Irish-Italian -- it's in my blood) and think Roman usage should form the basis of an Orthodox WR. I'm also far from anonymous -- this username is the only one I use online, and plenty of people know me under it. If you want, I have no problem giving my name (Michael M.) and affiliation (Antiochian). YBeayf 16:13, March 27, 2006 (CST)

Ari needs to be careful when he imputes bad motives to people, as well as when he mis-states facts. I haven't fopcused on the SASB -- I merely corrected the false statements made that the book is not authorized for use and that it is used by only one parish in the AWRV. I have said nothing negative about the SASB, nor do I have the slightest interest in "smearing" the Western Rite. Moreover, I've provided EVIDENCE. Anyone can check the SASB (it is available as a download from the parish in Whittier) and confirm that I have correctly quoted the Metropolitan's letter of authorization. I have provided the names of three AWRV parishes that use the SASB; anyone can contact them to confirm their use of the book. I have provided "veracity of sources," while Ari simply remains in denial. I don't see what the problem is with the SASB. The reference to the restored Gallican rite is inaccurate. Not only have I pointed out why "Neo-Gallican" is an inappropriate label, the rite was first authorized by the Patriachate of Moscow more than a decade before St John of Shanghai and San Francisco, along with Metropolitan Anastassy, approved its use within ROCOR. I would appreciate it if Ari would clarify exactly whom he is calling a vandal. --Fr Lev 08:44, March 27, 2006 (CST)

Ari, I don't appreciate you calling my edit "vandalism". The "Liturgy of St. Tikhon" doesn't have its primary origin with the Sarum Rite, or with the '49 BCP, either. Saying it has its primary origin in the Sarum Rite, without further qualification, is misleading and inaccurate. YBeayf 11:55, March 14, 2006 (CST)

None of this is vandalism. Vandalism is a deliberate attempt to disrupt the wiki. This is instead a content dispute. Please keep to the issues rather than characterizing disagreement as vandalism. Vandalism is when we get ads or obscenities posted here, not arguments over content and POV. —Fr. Andrew talk contribs (THINK!) 14:14, March 27, 2006 (CST)
Father Deacon, I would respectfully note that it *is* vandalism. St. Tikhon's is *not* descended from the 1552 (the true prayer book of Cranmer). The lineage is Sarum, to 1549 BCP, to the Non-Juror liturgy, to the American BCP's (the 1928 restoring much that was removed in intervening American editions.) However, a pov without basis continues to be inserted linking St. Tikhon's to 1552! That simply isn't so! The primary origin of the 1549 BCP, and of all descending from that rite, is the Sarum use. YBeayf claims no vandalism, but continues edits with false information due to a 'strong dislike' for 'Anglican usage' (by which he means, the majority *Orthodox* Western Rite use.) "Fr.Lev", however ignores the statements of the authorities of the AWRV as to the official texts (one can easily check with the AWRV as to its veracity). The motives are not 'imputed' they are *latent* in the pov - the goal is obviously derision of the Orthodox Western Rite as it exists, and the attempt to smear it as 'Zwinglian'/'Cranmerian', etc. - sure, zeal not according not according to knowledge, but also definitely vandalism. - Ari 18:04, April 10, 2006 (CDT)
Vandalism, as defined by the administration, is when (as recently happened) an article gets renamed to "Eutychius of Constantinople on Wheels!", not when editors disagree over what an article should contain. Please feel free to disagree on content and work out a consensus amongst those interested in editing the article, but calling such disagreements vandalism doesn't help anything. This is a content/POV dispute, not vandalism.
That aside, if this dispute cannot be resolved, then we can protect the article until it can be worked out, reduce its content to something agreeable (and documentable) to all parties, or detail the variant views in separate sections. (My preference would be the last option.) Whatever happens, though, imputing motives to other editors (true or not) doesn't help anyone, and generally can tend to inflame passions and not improve articles. Let us all keep to discussions of fact, and not whether a particular editor has some hidden agenda or not. —Fr. Andrew talk contribs (THINK!) 20:57, April 10, 2006 (CDT)

Ari, if you would, please trace the Liturgy of St. Tikhon back to the Sarum rite, giving all intermediate steps. YBeayf 16:02, March 27, 2006 (CST)

YBeayf, You can find the whole in Subdeacon Benjamin Andersen's thesis for his MDiv at St. Vlad's Seminary, hopefully to be published soon (from Lancelot Andrewes press). From comparing notes, its says the same as the research we have: the St. Tikhon's is an Orthodox version of the Anglican/American Missal service (a Catholic restoration of the 1928). The 1928, in its turn, was a heavily Catholicized revision of the more protestant 1892 BCP. They in turn have their origin (as the whole American BCP tradition does) with the liturgy of the Scottish Non-Jurors 1718. The Non-Juror liturgy used the 1549 BCP, the Sarum (which was the national Scottish use), and Primitive/Eastern liturgies as its source documents (primarily that of St. Clement and the liturgy of St. James.) Also important were the ceremonial survivals of the Scottish Episcopal Church (which never had the puritanizing tendencies that occurred in the Anglican Church, and retained Sarum customs and even the 1549 BCP until the attempt to impose Laud's book, over which the 1718 was a vast improvement.) So - to put it simply: late Sarum> Henrician Sarum > 1549 > (Laud's )> 1718 Non-Juror > (American BCP tradition (1789,1892,1928)) > American/Anglican Missal > St. Tikhon's. IMPORTANT TO NOTE: this is not a history of 'continual degradation', but many of the latter steps are returns to much that intervening forms removed. In parentheses are intermediate steps which are technically intermediate, but have minimal bearing on the final liturgy! Important to note as well: that the Syriac, Greek, Old Roman, Gallican, Mozarabic all were liturgical influences on various stages in the development as well. To say that the St. Tikhon's is simply American 1928 BCP, of course, is an understatement - properly, St. Tikhon's is an Orthodox form of the *Anglican Missal*. I post this in hopes you might learn something, rather than spreading more erroneous information like that found on 'Orthodox forums'. (I should note, our ROCOR English Rite also has the 1549 BCP & 1718 Non-Juror rites as texts, as well as those uses of Sarum and York - not to be confused with the Sarum Use we have as well.) However, the *primary source document*, the original on which the tradition is based *is* the Sarum use. Part of the issue we have with detractors is because they spread the *same* misinformation over and over again - not knowing whereof they speak. I'm pretty sure that if you knew anything about our Orthodox use of the Roman rite (AWRV and Christminster), you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss 'Anglican Use'... you might be surprised at the provenance of that use as well, and how *alike* they are (especially in AWRV). - Ari 18:47, April 10, 2006 (CDT)

This account is only partially true. (1) The Liturgy of St Tikhon is not based on the Anglican Missal. Fr Joseph Angwin based it upon the 1928 American BCP. The Roman elements were taken from the Liturgy of St Gregory so that the two rites would match on those particulars. As it happens, the Anglican Missal used those same Roman elements (that have always been foreign to official Anglican liturgies). But the actual lineage isn't to the Anglican Missal. (2) In any event, the latter was never an authorized liturgical book within official Anglicanism. (3) I have never seen any scholar claim that ‘the 1928, in its turn, was a heavily Catholicized revision of the more protestant 1892 BCP.' Please name several specific ways in which the 1928 is a Catholic advance over the 1892. (4) The claim that the Sarum is the primary source of the 1549 is misleading. The anaphora is rather different, not to mention the ritual. (5) It is a gross overstatement (at best) to say that the American BCP tradition has its origin in the non-Jurors liturgy. Most of the 1789 BCP was a slightly edited version of the 1662, although there is influence from the Scottish BCP. --Fr Lev 20:48, April 10, 2006 (CDT)

As I wrote elsewhere, the Liturgy of St Tikhon, being based on the 1928 BCP, shows elements from the English BCP tradition, including the 1552 BCP. One example is the exhortation, 'Ye who do tuly and earnestly repent you of your sins....' In the 1549, this came after the canon; in the 1552, it is moved to before the sursum corda. This 1552 position is used in the Orthodox Missal. In the canon itself, the 1549's prayer that the bread and wine 'may be unto us the body and blood' is changed in the 1552 to 'may be partakers of the body and blood,' a change Cranmer made to 'remove any suspicion of transubstantiation.' The Orthodox Missal follows the 1552. So to claim that the 1552 is not a source for the Liturgy of St Tikhon is clearly false. --Fr Lev 21:02, April 10, 2006 (CDT)

Regarding the claim: "later editions were heavy revisions of each antecedent text, reflecting post-reformation thought and practice" It should be noted that the history of the various editions of the BCP is not necessarily linear, nor a clear progression. The most Protestant BCP (1552) was the only work that can be clearly pinned on Cranmer, was only approved by Parliament, and never widely used for the few short months between its adoption and the reintroduction of Sarum use. The 1662 BCP, while still very Anglican in its vagueness, was still a step more catholic-wards than 1552. The 1928 English BCP, approved by Convocation (the English Synod) but not by Parliament, was itself a return to principles closer to the first English BCP. The Scottish Non-Jurors who sought union with the Orthodox themselves either used the 1549 English BCP, or the Scottish Liturgy which itself had some origin with the 1549. So - such general sweeping statements about the history of the BCP are bound to create more confusion than clarity about centuries worth of sometimes poorly related liturgies. The American BCP tradition does owe more to the Scottish liturgy - particularly the 1928 American, which was a small improvement on the 1892 American (that which St. Tikhon asked the Holy Synod's Commission on Anglican and Old Catholic affairs to evaluate for adaptation and use by Western convert communities.)Aristibule