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Talk:Birth Control and Contraception

2,203 bytes added, 11:43, July 12, 2018
reply to fr lev
Metropolitan Macarius, BTW, was the primate of the Russian Orthodox Church in the middle of the 19th c., so he presumably isn't subject to your ''ad hominem'' about being "insidiously affected by the sexual revolution of the 20th century." But then, I don't see how you could reasonably make that assertion against the current Church of Russia, either.
 
:Metropolitan Macarius does not, in that quote regarding his definition of marriage, endorse contraception. The challenge that there is no voice prior to the 20th century which endorses a single form of contraception still stands unanswered. The view that marriage (or sex) has its primary purpose in the union of a couple does not mean that the active separation of the procreative aspect of sex is good or acceptable.
:I think we are going around in circles talking about Jewish commentary, what the Fathers’ really mean, the about which ones are valid, about whose use of Fathers’ count as proof-texts and whose are valid citations, and how to go about reaching a patristic synthesis. I get the feeling now that we will not get any further in this particular debate.
:What may be fruitful is a discussion of what constitutes sex that is conducive to the flourishing of an Orthodox Christian. This may allow us to clarify what it is about our pictures of ideal sex that allow or do not allow for the use of contraception. Let us take an example case: anal intercourse between a heterosexual married couple. Acceptable or unacceptable? Why or why not? --[[User:Gmharvey|Gmharvey]] ([[User talk:Gmharvey|talk]]) 11:43, July 12, 2018 (UTC)
 
===Is NFP rightly considered to be a form of "contraception"?===
You are mistaken. Nowhere in ''Humane Vitae'' does the Pope refer to NFP as contraception. The only occurrences of a form of the word "contraception" refer to prohibited techniques. And, "Neither the Church nor her doctrine is inconsistent when she considers it lawful for married people to take advantage of the infertile period but condemns as always unlawful the use of means which directly prevent conception, even when the reasons given for the later practice may appear to be upright and serious. In reality, these two cases are completely different. In the former the married couple rightly use a faculty provided them by nature. In the later they obstruct the natural development of the generative process" (sec. 16). Moreover, it is clear that the US Conference of Catholic Bishops believe that NFP is not a form of contraception. See http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/marriage-and-family/natural-family-planning/what-is-nfp/why-nfp-is-not-contraception.cfm/ The same is true of Pope John Paul II who, in his Apostolic Exhortation on marriage, ''Familiaris Consortio'', wrote: "In the light of the experience of many couples and of the data provided by the different human sciences, theological reflection is able to perceive and is called to study further '''the difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle''': it is a difference whichis much wider and deeper than is usually thought, one which involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality." Moreover, this is also the explicit teaching of the ''Catechism of the Catholic Church'', which approvingly quotes the distinction between NFP and Pope John Paul II in its Sec. 2370. Also, it adds in Sec. 2399 "The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception)."
 
:Sure, I take your point. But it all seems like meaningless distinctions. NFP and what you would classify as “contraception” share the purpose of trying to have sex that won’t result in children – i.e. the preferment of sterile sex to sex which can produce children. --[[User:Gmharvey|Gmharvey]] ([[User talk:Gmharvey|talk]]) 11:43, July 12, 2018 (UTC)
 
 
== Chrysostom Redux ==
"At the beginning, the procreation of children was desirable, so that each person might leave a memorial of his life. Since there was not yet any hope of resurrection, but death held sway, and those who died thought they would perish after this life, God gave the comfort of children, so as to leave living images of the departed and to preserve our species. For those who were about to die and for their relatives, the greatest consolation was their offspring. This was the chief reason for desiring children. Now that the resurrection is at our gates, we do not speak of death but advance toward another life better than the present, the desire for posterity is superfluous… '''So there remains only one reason for marriage, to avoid fornication, and the remedy is offered for this purpose'''.” (St John Chrysostom, ''On Marriage and Family Life'', pp. 85-86.
 
:As mentioned above, saying that marriage’s essential purpose is not procreation but the avoidance of fornication does not mean that actively separating procreation from marital sex is a good thing. Non sequitur. George S Gabriel’s interpretation tried to connect the two by his talk of not having to make provisions for the act resulting in children (which is a pretty way of saying something a little different: i.e. that it is ok to make provisions such that your sex does not result in children). --[[User:Gmharvey|Gmharvey]] ([[User talk:Gmharvey|talk]]) 11:43, July 12, 2018 (UTC)
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