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| | *[[Talk:John (Zizioulas) of Pergamon/Archive 1|Archive 1]] - from article creation (2007) to end of March 2008. | | *[[Talk:John (Zizioulas) of Pergamon/Archive 1|Archive 1]] - from article creation (2007) to end of March 2008. |
| − | *[[Talk:John (Zizioulas) of Pergamon/Archive 2|Archive 2]] - from April 2008. | + | *[[Talk:John (Zizioulas) of Pergamon/Archive 2|Archive 2]] - from April 1 to May 16, 2008. |
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| | + | == A new beginning == |
| | + | Friends, I've gone through the archives for the talk page here and made some comments, and also adjusted the text of the article a little bit. I think we're at a pretty good point here -- the article gives a short summary of the Metropolitan's life and work, hits on the basics of his writings, and includes some of the back and forth and how it has been received. Of course, many points could be expanded, and a few things could be cleaned up, but overall I think the "neutrality" is pretty good -- it seems to me that the article as it currently stands neither denigrates Met. John and his work nor exalts him. |
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| − | == Reversion == | + | I've received numerous requests to be more active in moderation here. I've wanted to give everyone some time to settle down a bit. I am pretty tired of all the personal invective, accusations, etc. Let me give a strong warning here: if those who have participated in these talk pages continue to deal disrespectfully with other sysops or members of the wiki and attack them personally rather than just their ideas, they will be banned. Because of the history of this article, I'm also asking that changes be discussed on this page first. Thank you. — [[User:FrJohn|<b>FrJohn</b>]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit§ion=new talk]) 03:08, May 21, 2008 (UTC) |
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| − | I've rolled back [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]]'s recent major changes (essentially for reasons detailed throughout this Talk page)—perhaps it was a mistake to unprotect the article again so soon. I'll leave it unprotected for now, hoping that Agenda-driven edits won't take over again. If they do, and especially if they're from [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]], it may be necessary to introduce a ban on that editor for a time. —[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 18:07, April 30, 2008 (UTC)
| + | == Criticisms section == |
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| − | : Your revert without even reading the changes I put in is another proof that this website has no interest in expressing the reality that exists in The Church, but rather fictitious visions of several individuals claiming to be "fr". [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]] 18:30, April 30, 2008 (UTC)
| + | Mention of the '''Leithart article''' in the "Criticisms" section is problematic in that the article is not at all a criticism of Metropolitan John, nor does the author understand it as a criticism (personal communication). It can only be described as an "implicit criticism" if one buys the fallacious idea that to differ from V. Lossky is to depart from patristic theology. I also think it odd to elevate a reference in a '''letter by an Old Calendarist bishop''' to Metropolitan John and the late Fr John Meyendorff as "Westernized" theologians to the level of encyclpedic criticism. There is no argument made in the letter, no appeal to a text by either the Metropolitan or Meyendorff as evidence, simply the dismisal of two mainstream Orthodox theologians by a decidedly out of the mainstream bishop who is not in communion with the autocephalous Churches. The '''piece by Hieromonk Patapios''' has the same problem as the piece by Archbishop Chrysostomos -- an out of the mainstream opinion without any argument or appeal to a text by the Metropolitan. There is a reference to '''a 1971 article''' attacking dialogues with non-Chalcedonians that refers to Metropolitan John as a "muddled theologian." This is another example of an Old Calendarist criticism that I don't think belongs on a mainstream Orthodox encyclopedia. As to '''non-Orthodox influences''' on his thought (if this is to remain in the article) this sentence needs to be revised: "Some are concerned by his reliance of non-Orthodox sources on his thought ...." As the Metropolitan is quite specific that he does not rely on these non-Orthodox sources and points out how all of them cannot produce a true theology of personhood, it is wrong to refer to "his reliance" as if that is a fact. And, as it has been pointed out before, whether or not someone is "influenced" by a non-Orthodox writer should not be an issue -- V. Lossky was certainly influenced by non-Orthodox writers. The question is whether it can be shown that such influence has had the effect of determining a heterodox result in a theologian's position. Even Turcescu, who criticizes Metropolitan John on personhood and mentions the influence of non-Orthodox writers on the Metropolitan, does not make the claim that this influence results in heterodoxy. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 14:45, May 21, 2008 (UTC) |
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| − | :: Oh, trust me—I read them. Anyway, [[w:Talk:John Zizioulas]], along with your Agenda here, demonstrate that you're not interested in pursuing the editing of an encyclopedia in a calm manner. Indeed, your above condemnation of our many thousands of editors ''en masse'' is a pretty clear indication that you're not interested in good faith editing. As noted on your Talk page, your account has been banned. —[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 18:33, April 30, 2008 (UTC) | + | : I'm in favor of removing references which are essentially just offhand remarks, especially those made by representatives of fringe groups. The "Criticisms" section should not essentially be "List of bad things anyone has ever said about Metr. John." It has to include criticisms of substance that understand themselves as criticisms, with more weight being given to MCB writers than those of non-MCBs. —[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 14:54, May 21, 2008 (UTC) |
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| − | ::: Your action against my account was illegal. It represented misjudgment on your side, which resulted in misuse of your sysops powers. Consequently, your error was reverted by Fr. John. [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]] 18:21, May 2, 2008 (UTC) | + | ::I've moved the Leithart reference to the "studies" section and marked the Old Calendarist schismatics as such. Not sure what to do with them, although I think we must admit that they are part of the larger conversation here, which is, of course, much larger than Met. John. — [[User:FrJohn|<b>FrJohn</b>]] ([http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit§ion=new talk]) 18:09, May 21, 2008 (UTC) |
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| − | :::: Illegal? Are you planning to sue me now? (In what court?) —[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 18:25, May 2, 2008 (UTC) | + | :: I agree with Fr Andrew here. I think that, at the very least, a criticism has to consist of an ''argument'' against Metropolitan John's position, and not just a negative adjective or an unjustified assertion. The article shouldn't be a list of names Zizioulas has been called (or reportedly has been called). |
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| − | == Enough ==
| + | :: I suggest that we list thematically the studies and serious interactions with Metropolitan John's theology, giving short summaries of their conclusions. [[User:Seminarist|Seminarist]] 21:17, May 21, 2008 (UTC) |
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| − | This is an Orthodox Website which for many people is a valuable source of knowledge. The attacks against His Eminence Metropolitan John of Pergamon, or any other hierarch of the Holy Orthodox Church, are not necessary on this forum. Whilst I don't share the same ecclesiological opinions as His Eminence, I have no right as a member of the Church to criticise him. Please, for the sake of those young people who use this website for edification, cease these attacks on the hierachy of the One, Holy Orthodox Church. - Peter Mav
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| − | :I also agree Peter, it would be a good idea if the discussion around this Father of the church is put on hold and indeed perhaps we should pray for the poor dear's soul as the amount of negativity emitted towards him is very unfair! I say, lets all work towards continuing to build Orthodox articles not critical defences to be used in a court of law. I dont even know why he is controversial :-) Like Mother Molania said in her talk from [[Ancient Faith Radio]], Insane people associating with insane people can not become sane ...only the Saints are "sane"! Chit chatting, keeps US in INSANITY! [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 09:32, May 1, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | :: That is precisely why all over the article of Metropolitan John and other contemporary Orthodox theologians we should print in big bold letters: “DO NOT BASE YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE ORTHODOXY ON WIRITINGS OF THIS CONTEMPORARIES WHOSE THEOLOGY IS NOT VERIFIED BY THE HISTORY YET. USE THEOLOGY OF THE HOLY FATHERS INSTEAD.”
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| − | :: We do not want to educate young people with the thought of the potentially problematic theologians like m. John (and fr. Schmmemmann, fr. Mayendorff, fr. Afanasiev, etc. – students of the “Paris school of Orthodoxy”). If you want to discuss it further, and you know more appropriate place (e.g. private forum), we can go there and continue.
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| − | :: [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]] 14:59, May 1, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | ::: This is an encyclopedia, not a catechism. We're not in the business of putting big warning labels on articles about modern writers, especially those who are generally quite well-regarded throughout the Orthodox world, such as nearly everyone you mention.
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| − | ::: That they are criticized by certain minority sectors of Orthodoxy is certainly a viable element for their respective articles, but that criticism should not be the dominant theme of the article, which would be undue weight. The impression a reader should get ought to be based on how the writer is regarded throughout the Orthodox Church, not on the idiosyncratic criticisms of a few, especially not regarding someone who's never even been accused by the proper authorities (much less condemned by them).
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| − | ::: In any event, any general overview of Orthodoxy makes it plain that our theological emphasis is on the Scriptures and the Holy Fathers, not on any modern writer. If someone gets his entire impression of Orthodoxy or education in the faith from a single article on OrthodoxWiki, well, he's going about it wrong. One would hope that common sense would make that clear. —[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 18:31, May 1, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | I agree with some points raised by all who have responded. I am still concerned however, because I know a lot of youths use this website for introductory information and not having extensive knowledge or sometimes even the spiritual grounding can be scandalised. Obviously, mentioning that this hierarch's teachings are not accepted by some is good, encyclopaedic knowledge but some of the criticisms prior to their removal were not beneficial to the soul of anyone. I apologise if I have offended anyone. - Peter Mav | |
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| − | : In the above response of user Andrew we find the basis for the entire dispute. He is saying that Metropolitan John is ''"regarded throughout the Orthodox Church"'' and being ''"criticized by certain minority sectors of Orthodoxy"'', which is completely untrue/false/wrong/misguiding/misleading/etc. Vast majority of Orthodoxy exists beyond US shoreline, and even beyond English speaking world. Sooner that group of the individuals realize that, sooner we will get synergy in our actions. Such a fringe and perverted view of position of m. John in Orthodoxy is what user Andrew and couple of other individuals kept promoting, constantly trying to minimize the number and extent of the critics. It is best evident in the current version of the article, when in the criticism section they put reference to Bishop Ignjatije, who praises his work. What is that reference doing there? [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]] 12:54, May 2, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | I think that the user Fr Andrew is correct in his assessment. Lest anyone get the impression that the Serbian Church has somehow made a judgement that Metropolitan John is heterodox, I thought it worthwhile to note that a bishop and professor of theology in Serbia is a strong supporter of Metropolitan John's work. Anytime anyone disagrees with Cebactokpatop, he resorts to personal attack (both here and in the Wikipedia article). He has attacked and dismissed not only the other editors and Metropolitan John, but also:
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| − | *Bishop Kallistos Ware ("Ecumenist buddy of JZ")
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| − | *Christos Yannaras ("Ecumenist buddy of JZ")
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| − | *Fr John Meyendorff ("Heterodox", along with Schmmemann and Afanasiev)
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| − | *Fr Boris Bobrinskoy ("never heard of this guy"): I can't help it if Cebactokpatop hasn't heard of the dean of the St Sergius Institute in Paris, but then again, he dismisses the Paris school as "heterodox."
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| − | *Bishop Ignjatije Midić ("ecumenist... who can hardly be called a theologian, as he is almost not writing anything"): Well, in addition to being bishop of Branicevo, he is professor of dogmatics and ethics at the Serbian theological institute in Belgrade and is the author of a new book on dogmatics.
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| − | *Aristotle Papanikolaou ("Another buddy of JZ"), etc.
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| − | When I mentioned Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos, his only response was "Are you sure?" The answer to that is, Yes. If one checks the several references to Metropolitan John in Metropolitan Hierotheos' book on the person, one finds they are all very positive. On a personal note, having just finished reading ''Communion and Otherness'' and looking through ''Being as Communion'' again, I do not see how anyone who carefully read them could give any credence to the charges Cebactokpatop has made, not least of which is the absurd charge of heterodoxy. Aprt from the Serbian text he cites by Lazic and the interview with Archbishop Stylianos, NONE of the sources he cites as criticisms draw his conclusions. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 13:51, May 2, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | :: You are certainly entitled to support JZ and other individuals from Paris school of "orthodoxy". However, you are not entitled to personally dismiss me for providing valid academic resources that criticize JZ or any other product of mentioned school in Paris. From the list of the articles you contributed to, we can clearly see that your faith is in Paris. Orthodox who prefer to have their faith elswhere (e.g. Cappadocia), have a right to express their dissatisfaction with the innovations of Paris' school as well. You have done a great job in prizing JZ's work in the article. Now it is a time to balance it with the concerns of the Traditional Orthodox, Mr. Puhalo. [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]] 17:43, May 2, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | ::: Methinks you have Fr. Lev confused with Abp. [[Lazar (Puhalo) of Ottawa]]. They're not the same person. —[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 18:02, May 2, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | :::: Are you sure about that my friend? I am beyond reasonable doubts... they are the same person. [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]] 18:10, May 2, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | ::::: Based on what? The name "Lev"? —[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 18:31, May 2, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | ROTFL! I have been accused of many things in my life, but never of being an archbishop! --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 19:12, May 2, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | : You are right. You are not an Archbishop. To become the one, it would require valid canonical ordination. [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]] 19:14, May 2, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | Another personal attack -- ''quelle surprise''! I was "canonically" ordained, BTW, by a "canonical" bishop of a "canonical" patriarchal Church. I know who I am, but I have no idea who Cebactokpatop is. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 19:30, May 2, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | : Whatever. I am not interested in "canonicity" of your ordination (if any). What I am interested in, is making sure you understand that current version of the article is not balanced, as you intentionally (or not) tried to minimize criticisms of JZ. Do you understand that? If you do, it would be easier for me to go in and try to balance it so that readers do not get an impression that they have before them, article about some "saint". [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]] 20:12, May 2, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | ::Ok, enough everyone with the personal back and forth. I agree that the article should also present criticisms fairly and rationally. Cebactokpatop, I am concerned by your personal attacks, which at least in some cases are totally unfounded, and to my mind, crazy (e.g. Fr Lev is not Archbp Lazar!). If this kind of stuff continues, I'm going to freeze this page. I've just edited the article to incorporate some of the material present in earlier drafts. — [[User:FrJohn|<b>FrJohn</b>]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit§ion=new talk]) 21:17, May 2, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | :::I agree. While I normally say very little on Orthodoxwiki (I'm not a scholar of complex dogma or theology, nor do I wish or claim to be), I've been lurking around this discussion and reading what everyone has said. Cebactokpatop, I think it would behoove you to take a leaf from Frs. Andrew and John, as well as the other sysops and users here on Orthodoxwiki. They've been extremely charitable with you when they have received so very little from you in these discussions. When they indulge your vitriol, you reward them with ad hominem attacks, questioning their identities, and even going so far as to question the canonicity of people's ordinations with temerity (although you deny this, it is clearly evident that you do so). You ask readers and writers to address your edits with "proper academic attire." Yet, I have to ask the physician to heal himself with respect to your paranoia and derision. Fr. Andrew, specifically, has not only responded to you in a very Christ-like manner, but has been nothing short of a gentleman in dealing with you.
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| − | :::I ask, in the future, when you are a guest of other wikis and forums, you try to act in a similar manner.[[User:Mike|Mike]] 21:55, May 3, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | == Material for Inclusion ==
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| − | * [[Fr. John Behr]] in the aticle ''"The Trinitarian Being of the Church"'', argues that Zizioulas' use of The Three as an archetype for The Church, when he establishes communion of The Church as an image of the communion od The Three, ends up dismissing both - The Three and The Church. ''(St Vladimir's Theological Quarterly 48:1 (2004), 67-88)'' {{unsigned|Cebactokpatop}}
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| − | In reviewing Fr John Behr's essay, I don't see it saying anything to suggest that Metropolitan John's view ends us "dismissing" the Trinity and the Church. I'd like to see the quote and page number that is alleged to say that. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 22:54, May 2, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | : Any suggestions on how to reword Fr. Behr's criticism? Isn't this dismissal of The Church: ''"What is said of the Church is certainly based upon what is said of the Trinity, but the effect of speaking in this manner, paradoxically, is that the Church is separated from God, as a distinct entity reflecting the divine being."'' (page 68) Church without ties to God does not exist, even though, it may perfectly mimic the Three. At the same time, we do not know The Three without Their Church. It is The Church that is left behind to proclaim The Three. Disconnect JZ creates, dismisses The Church, and conequenly blind us from The Three, which equates to dismissal. [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]] 03:43, May 3, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | == What counts as "academic criticism"? ==
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| − | Fr John, I find your floowing edit problematic: "Peter J. Leithart's article, Divine Energies and Orthodox Soteriology, cites the work of Papanikolaou, and points out where Vladimir Lossky and Metropolitan John (Zizioulas) differ on the issue of divine energies. His article implies criticism, based on understanding of the certain Orthodox, who see work of Prof. Lossky as contemporary synthesis of the patristic theology. Thus, to differ from Prof. Lossky, is to differ from patristic theology."
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| − | (1) Leithart in no way understands hie article to be critical of Metropolitan John. Not only is that clear from actually reading the article, but he has confirmed that in personal correspondence. (2) There is nothing here to indicate there is any substantive problem with what Metropolitan John says about the essence/energies distinction. (3) If an undergraduate wrote in an academic paper the sentence, "Thus, to differ from Prof. Lossky, is to differ from patristic theology", there wouldn't get a very good grade. Lossky is a personal theological hereo of mine, but I don't know any serious theologian who would judge him to be the sole criterion of Orthodoxy. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 23:13, May 2, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | : Indeed, no. Lossky himself has been criticized by major figures in the 20th century, e.g., Staniloae, who's no theological slouch himself. —[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 02:42, May 3, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | :: Zizioulas and Meyendorff fell into the pit trying to criticise either Lossky or St. Gregory Palamas, as both of them are not capable of grasping what those two champions were writing about. Area related to the Holy Spirit is unknown and incomprehensible to these "eucharistic ecclesiologians" who understand bodily portion only, based on instructions from RCC theologians Mr. Congar and Mr. Lubac. In order to understand The Spirit, one has to now The Spirit of Orthodoxy. Paris school is so far from that Spirit that their theology consequently, can not be in the Spirit of Orthodoxy. In order to "bring closer" Orthodoxy to Rome (ecumenists), they have to introduce some other spirit - that is spirit of Rome. Orthodox Spirit can never get any closer to Rome than in past 1000 years. [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]] 02:59, May 3, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | ::: An interesting analysis, but I fail to see how this is relevant to the task at hand, which is summarizing reliable secondary sources into an encyclopedia entry which represents the mainstream Chalcedonian viewpoint and takes minor note of other relevant viewpoints. Personal attacks are not really germane—how do you know what Meyendorff or Metr. John are "capable of grasping"? —[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 03:08, May 3, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | :::: That was my response on your assertion: "Lossky himself has been criticized" with my addition of Meyendorff and St. Gregory as another example of the same failure. JZ in his bible Being as Commununion "showed" how Lossky "was wrong". [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]] 03:15, May 3, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | == Should criticism be 'mainstream'? ==
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| − | I have read repeatedly that OrthoWiki is about "mainstream" Orthodoxy. Some of the criticism included here is, e.g., from Old Calendarists, who condemn most of the Churches represented here for using the Revised Julian calendar or for ecumenism. Nothing against Old Calendarist "resistance" synods and hyper-traditionalists, but what relevance should their criticism have in a minstream venue such as this? Given that they make the same criticisms of Bishop Kallistos, Fr Alexander Schmemann, Fr John Meyendorff, Christos Yannaras, etc., as they do of Metropolitan John, why should this be included? And all to satisfy one editor whose personal animus is clear? What will come next? When he became convinced "beyond reasonable doubts" that I am Abp Lazar Puhalo, he immediately went to the page on the Archbishop to write negative comments. I am waiting for him to add "criticism" sections to the articles on Bishop Kallistos, Fr Alexander Schmemann, et al., in which they, too, are denounced as heterodox ecumenists of the Paris School. What is to stop him? After all, he can find a blog or an online article by or quoting Heiromonk Patapios or Archbishop Chrysostomos casting aspersions on the orthodoxy of them all. He has dismissed Bishop Ignatije (Midic) of Pozarevac and Branicevo. Look what passes for "criticism" in the link he provided on that page -- a blog entry with a paragraph of Bishop Ignatije. No argument. Even the priest who wrote the blog wasn't sure that the paragraph was a true representation of Bishop Ignatije. This is the "criticism" that should be included in an encyclopedia article? --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 00:59, May 3, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | : I think your point is well made. The so-called "Traditionalist Orthodox" are explicitly not given a soapbox here, as per the [[OW:NPOV|MCB]]. If there seems to be a united front against the subject of an article from those sectors, it is enough to mention it briefly, but not to allow it to dominate an article.
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| − | : In any event, what is clear is that Metr. John is generally quite highly regarded throughout the Orthodox Church, which is explicitly defined on OrthodoxWiki as [[List of autocephalous and autonomous churches|this list]], i.e., the Mainstream Chalcedonian churches. Metr. John is not a controversial figure by any means, and the article should reflect that. —[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 02:37, May 3, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | : I dod not provide any link to Bishop Ignjatije. Please stop telling false stories. Also, "resistance" Orthodox are in dogmatics same as Orthodox, which makes them valid in their criticisms. What they differ about is heresy over all heresies - ecumenism, and masonic infux into Orthodoxy - [[Meletios IV (Metaxakis) of Constantinople]]. It appears that those who praise Paris school of "orthodoxy" support ecumenism, and logically, regard "reistance" Orthodox as lesser Orthodox than Vatican! [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]] 02:47, May 3, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | :: If I am mistaken in how I read the OrthoWiki history page on the article, my apology. But it seems to say you created that link at 21:53 on May 2, 2008: http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Ignatije_%28Midic%29_of_Pozarevac_and_Branicevo&diff=65572&oldid=42851
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| − | --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 02:54, May 3, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | :: [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]], all of this is essentially irrelevant. The do-it-yourself "Celtic Orthodox" gent who lives near here and visits our church every so often is also quite likely "in dogmatics same as Orthodox," but I'm not about to interview him for this article.
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| − | :: The point is that what the "resistance/True/Genuine/Traditionalist/etc." groups think is only of relatively small importance on most OrthodoxWiki articles. Whatever one may think of the so-called "Paris School" (whatever that may mean—does that simply mean St. Sergius Institute?), it currently is part of and accepted by mainstream Orthodoxy, while by comparison the "resistance/True/Genuine/Traditionalist/etc." groups are fringe. Their opinions on Metr. John are irrelevant. Perhaps if one of them had engaged in some major debate with him, they might be relevant.
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| − | :: One doesn't have to be an "ecumenist" or a Freemason or an Ultramontanist sympathizer in order to see that giving undue weight to the opinions of such folks is essentially a violation of the explicit bias of OrthodoxWiki. —[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 02:57, May 3, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | ::: I repeat - I did not produce any link related to Bishop Ignjatije. All I did on his page was to convert section listing his writings from latin into cyrillic.
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| − | ::: It appears to me that both of you want to minimize amount and extent of the criticisms for some reason. Can you provide a valid reason for your attempts to blind the public? [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]] 03:08, May 3, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | :::: It's not a question of eliminating criticism (OrthodoxWiki articles are replete with descriptions of criticism, which is clear from even a cursory browsing of the site)—it's where it's coming from and how much is actually appropriate to represent the mainstream view on the subject matter. Piling an article high with criticisms from fringe sources is not consistent with the policies of OrthodoxWiki, nor does it do anyone a service. "The public" are not "blinded" by an attempt to write balanced articles consistent with OrthodoxWiki policies. —[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 03:11, May 3, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | ::::: I have a problem with your statements simply because all of the disputes I had here were about same thing - constant denial of the criticisms from several individuals who disguise their denial under the mask of "policies", "encyclopedia", "POV/NPOV", etc. What is balanced for you? To praise his work on two pages, and then mention critics in a mild form just to satisfy annoyances like myself? [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]] 03:20, May 3, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | ::::::And you don't see a problem with all disputes being about the same thing? This is (or endeavours to be, either/or) a ''Mainstream Chalcedonian Orthodox encyclopedia''. This is fairly explicit in intent and focus. The scholarly attacks on Metr. John provided have been more attack than scholarly (quite a number of them are mere citations or references to Metr. John, rather than any theological grappling), and the few scholars have willingly placed themselves outside of the Mainstream Chalcedonian Orthodoxy that we are ''explicitly'' putting forward.
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| − | ::::::There have been others who have attempted to browbeat OW into submission for their own agendas - Ben Lomond and Western Rite talk pages are replete with arguments attempting to convince OW that it should not follow it's own ''explicit'' bias towards Mainstream Chalcedonian Orthodoxy. It's not like OW is claiming to be something that it's not. — by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at 01:49, May 5, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | ::::::: I do not know what is "Chalcedonian Orthodoxy". I know what Orthodoxy is vs. heterodoxy, namely: Monophysitism, Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, etc. Can you, please, define the term you were using? Thanks. [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]] 18:30, May 8, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | ::::::::I can do better than that: OrthodoxWiki provides a definition of those terms in the [[OW:MCB|POV section of the Style Manual]]. ''You need to read this''. In short, the terms are used, not because of the existence or nonexistence of any non-Chalcedonian Orthodoxy (that's not actually the point) - rather, the point is of general usage. Many groups take the term Orthodox onto themselves when they are, at most, little-o orthodox (and usually far less), which pushes OW to be quite explicit in its terms. Hence, Mainstream (i.e. one of the 14/15 autocephalous Churches or their autonomous Churches), Chalcedonian (i.e. accepting of the Fourth Ecumenical Council) Orthodox. Whether the adjectives are tautological or otherwise is neither here nor there, but they serve to explain a concept. — by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at 12:17, May 9, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | == Just a thought ==
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| − | It seems to me that this article is basically supposed to be a biographical introduction to Metr. John. While mention of the variety of opinions expressed about his work can, and probably should, be mentioned, it seems to me that this is not the proper forum for a detailed discussion (and listing) of these opinions. Half of the article, as it stands, is concerned with criticism and responses to that criticism and that seems rather unbalanced for something that is trying to be an encyclopedic entry.
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| − | I am not sure where a discussion of all these opinions should take place, or even whether OrthodoxWiki is the right forum for such a discussion. It just seems to me that this particular page is not the place for it.
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| − | Just my two cents, and with this I leave this debate.
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| − | In the risen Christ,
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| − | [[User:Vandrona|Fr. Peter]]
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| − | :Hi Fr. Peter, Thanks for your comments on this. It is indeed a hard call, but I do think that part of the role OrthodoxWiki plays is precisely in pushing for an articulation of controversial issues in church life. Obviously, so many of the criticisms of Metropolitan John's work are not just about him, but are about a particular movement or trend within Orthodox theology. I really want to see as precise and accurate overview of this debate as possible. Again, I do think this itself is a good service to the community. I'm not interested in personal attacks or blanket condemnations, etc. but am very interested in thoughtful criticisms or defenses. I'm curious about what others think. — [[User:FrJohn|<b>FrJohn</b>]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit§ion=new talk]) 09:27, May 3, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | ::Hello, Fr. John. I apologize for the lack of clarity in my original post, so I will try to briefly clarify what I was trying to say. First off, having thought about it and read your reply, it does make sense that the wiki is a good place to articulate controversial issues. In which case I meant to suggest following a Wikipedia approach: having a mention of the controversial issue on the biographical page with a link to an article specifically dedicated to the issue being debated (e.g., "Theology of John Zizioulas"). That way we can avoid the contentious section being longer than the rest of the article. We also get another page where all the relevant references can be quoted and noted (hopefully...), rather than simply having somewhat vague mentions in the vein of "Metr. John has addressed this criticism." [[User:Vandrona|Fr. Peter]]
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| − | I notice a minor edit "struggle" over the sentence someone wrote and I restored: "His article implies criticism, based on understanding of the certain Orthodox, who see work of [[Vladimir Lossky|Prof. Lossky]] as contemporary synthesis of the patristic theology. Thus, to differ from [[Vladimir Lossky|Prof. Lossky]], is to differ from patristic theology." This had been changed to "This article would be critical if seen through the ideology of [[Vladimir Lossky|Prof. Lossky]]'s work as being a contemporary synthesis of patristic theology." I think I understand the reason for this change -- the original sentence is rather vague and difficult to make sense of (it may be that the original author's primary language was not English), but I'm not sure the cleanup help makes the meaning any clearer. Perhaps somehow can expain this better, but for now I going to revert this again. — [[User:FrJohn|<b>FrJohn</b>]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit§ion=new talk]) 09:27, May 3, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | :Because the article is only a critical article if Lossky is held up as a synthesis of patristic theology. If the Lossky=Theology standpoint is not taken, the article is not critical at all, merely comparative. As I don't know how one would even go about justifying the Lossky=Theology standpoint, I don't think that the article is criticism at all, and shouldn't be there. — by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at 01:37, May 5, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | :: For that reason, sentence states: ''"based on understanding of the '''certain Orthodox''', who '''see work of [[Vladimir Lossky|Prof. Lossky]] as contemporary synthesis of the patristic theology'''"''. I think it is clearly explained, why and under what condition, article of Mr. Leithart is seen by ''"certain Orthodox"'' as criticism, unintentional though, but, still criticism. [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]] 13:14, May 5, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | :::Sad irony: such a viewpoint of Lossky isn't Orthodox. We do not take any one author as being perfect, theologically or otherwise - which explains how Staniloae can disagree with Lossky and yet not be thrown out of the Church. The question is whether the article ''is'' critical, not whether it can be misinterpreted into criticism. — by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at 19:30, May 5, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | == Selective reading of Papankolaou ==
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| − | Cebactokpatop has attempted to make hay of Papanikolaou's statement (in a footnote) that Metropolitan John has acknowledged in a private converstion that the Metropolitan was "influenced" by some secular philosophers, as if this is a "proof text" of some sort. The first thing to say is that this is something the Metropolitan has acknowledged in his own writing. I somehow get the impression that Cebactokpatop saw Papanikolaou's statement as a "smoking gun." But if one reads the text of the page (159) that is footnoted, one sees Papanikolaou saying a couple of things that Cebactokpatop is intentionally ignoring. The ironic one is that fact that Papanikolaou notes that the same charge of being influenced by modern personalism has been made against Lossky, as well as Metropolitan John. Thus he cherry-picks a charge that Papanikolaou points out is made against Lossky, his ''sine qua non'' of Orthodoxy. And, of course, Papanikolaou acquits both theologians. He goes on to cite the differences between the Metropolitan and those modern philosophers and that, for the Metropolitan, only a Trinitarian theology that affirms the monarchy of the Father can provide an adequate theology of personhood. As Papanikolaou says, "[Zizioulas} and Lossky are no more superimposing a philosophical system on the Eastern patristic writers than did these same writers Hellenize the teachings of Jesus" (160). Metropolitan John and Lossky simply have done what the Fathers did -- "thinking about the authoritative texts of the tradition in light of the questions, challenges, and prevailing philosophical currents of their time" (ibid). {{unsigned|Fr Lev}}
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| − | == The influence of Buber ==
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| − | I have forgotten to mention that I've read in several places that Martin Buber, not to mention other Western philosophers, were important influences on the theology of [[Dumitru Staniloae]]. Turcescu mentions elsewhere that "In ''Dogmatics'', Staniloae tried to blend in a very creative fashion patristic insights with contemporary theology, both Western and Eastern" (in ''The Teachings of Modern Orthodox Christianity on Law, Politics, & Human Nature'', p. 300). --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 12:08, May 6, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | : I honestly don't see what's so damning about having non-Orthodox influence on one's thinking, particularly since it's obvious from even a cursory reading of the ancient Fathers that their thinking was profoundly influenced by not just heterodox, but ''pagan'' sources. In any event, it's pretty hard even to function in the world without some sort of non-Orthodox influence on one's thinking.
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| − | : The question is whether one's teaching is Orthodox or not (not who or what influenced it), and in our Tradition no ruling can be made on this question without episcopal (synodal, in the case of a bishop being in question) authority. —[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 12:28, May 6, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | :: I think that we can not separate the two. One's heterodox influences bring up next logical question - Has one's theology escaped from the captivity of the influences (sources)? Very good example of this question can be found in the criticism of Fr. Schmmemmann by Fr. Pomazansky. Answer to that question is decisive on whether one's theology is Orthodox or heterodox. In the book Being as Communion, there are numerous references to heterodox writings and many assertions of JZ are based on them. For example, on pages 164-165, JZ talks about "individualities" and "persons" referring to the M. Buber... who made clear distinction between the two, making them antonyms. However, as Turcescu already provided in his article, St. Gregory of Nyssa used both terms as synonyms. In this example, heterodox influence prevailed in the thought of JZ over the Orthodox, resulting in his thought being heterodox as well. If he were to follow Orthodox thought od St. Gregory, we would not have this dispute over his work. [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]] 12:55, May 8, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | ::: From the fact that Zizioulas borrows a conceptual distinction between persons and individuals from Martin Buber, it does not follow that his thought is heterodox. It is logically fallacious to argue that 'Since X borrows from Y; and since Y is heterodox; therefore X is heterodox.' At most, Turcescu's article establishes that Zizioulas uses some words in different ways than St Gregory of Nyssa. But that does not make Zizioulas heterodox.
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| − | ::: Also, the claims made by Turscescu have been challenged (both by Zizioulas and others); as such, they cannot be appealed to as authoritative.
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| − | ::: Moreover, as far as I can see, there is no dispute over the thought of Metropolitan John. All that exists is Cebactokpatop trying to insert anti-Zizioulas polemic into the article, with everyone else telling him that he is being unreasonable and incivil. [[User:Seminarist|Seminarist]] 13:46, May 8, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | :::: It wouldn't follow under one condition - if it was not contrary to Orthodox. Since JZ adapted his thought to Buber's, whose definitions of terms "individual" and "person" are contrary to those of St. Gregory, his thought, consequently is based on foundations contrary to Orthodoxy. His direct adoption of heterodox definitions without revising them and providing content that is in line with Orthodoxy, pushed his thought outside to the sea of heterodoxy... [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]] 14:39, May 8, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | ::::: Again you fail to understand the point. Zizioulas found a particular way of speaking (the distinction between person and individual) helpful in articulating Orthodox theology in dialogue with the concerns of existentialist thinking. He uses 'individual' as a shorthand for a human being whose mode of existence is selfish and in rejection of the love of God; he uses 'person' as a shorthand for a human being whose mode of existence is ecclesial. It is not heterodox to distinguish between these different modes of existence. Your failure to grasp this suggests that you do not understand Zizioulas' thought. [[User:Seminarist|Seminarist]] 21:20, May 8, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | ==The Neopatristic Revival==
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| − | One of the great ironies of this back and forth has been the characterization of a number of important Orthodox theologians in the West as “modernist” or under the influence of Jewish or Western philosophers. Perhaps the most important commonality of Lossky, Zizioulas, Yannaras, Meyendorff, Schmemann, Florovksy, Romanides, and Staniloae was/is their commitment to a “return to the Fathers.” For a great deal of time, Greek and Russian theology languished under a “western captivity” in which Orthodox theologians abandoned patristics in favor of Roman scholasticism. Of these, the most influential has always been Lossky, in whom I was initiated thirty years ago when I first read ''The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church''. (BTW, ‘Eastern’ was not part of Lossky’s original title but was inserted at the insistence of an editor.) As it has been described by Aidan Nichols, “This study, with its identification an existentialist and personalist slant to the patristic dogmatics of, especially, Gregory of Nyssa and Maximus Confessor, soon acquired the status of a classic.” --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 17:50, May 6, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | : Please do not mix Fr. Florovsky with the reas to of the "team". Although, several of his stances were problematic, he was Orthodox theologian, apart and far from those that came out of Paris school. The "team" misused him, and now many think how he is part of the "team". He is not. [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]] 20:12, May 7, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | :: On the contrary, Florovsky is united with Lossky, Schmemann, Meyendorff, Romanides, Yannaras and Zizioulas in calling for a return to patristic theology, rather than to continue with the religious philosophy of Bulgakov and Berdiaev, or to acquiesce in the redundant repetition of nineteenth-century Russian seminary theology (cf. Pomazansky's ''Orthodox Dogmatic Theology''). [[User:Seminarist|Seminarist]] 13:52, May 8, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | ::: It is well known that names you mentioned (except Fr. Florovsky) use such "call" to disguise their inventions and parade them as patristic. [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]] 14:32, May 8, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | :::: It is not well known, becuase it is not correct. Anyway, it is clear that you do not understand Orthodox theology well enough to be making such claims. [[User:Seminarist|Seminarist]] 21:22, May 8, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | == revising the Lossky sentence ==
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| − | Clearly, Fr John was not himself claiming that "to differ from Lossky" is to differ from the Fathers; he was trying to state what the reviser believes. The statement before was ambiguous, so I have edited it to make clear Fr John's intent. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 18:57, May 8, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | : Oh Lord... He can read Fr. John's mind! [[User:Cebactokpatop|Cebactokpatop]] 20:09, May 8, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | :: Cebactokpatop, please don't remove a {{fact}} tag without providing the reference. [[User:Seminarist|Seminarist]] 21:09, May 8, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | I assume that Fr John is monitoring this page and that he will correct me if I have drawn a bad inference from his comments. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 23:16, May 8, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | == Who believes that 'to differ from Lossky is to differ from patristic theology'??? ==
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| − | Could someone please provide references of some individual or group within Orthodoxy who believes that to differ from Lossky's theology is to differ from patristic theology??? I am not aware of anyone who holds this ridiculous position except Cebactokpatop. If no-one except Cebactokpatop holds this view then this sentence should be struck from the article, as Orthodoxwiki is not about providing a platform for the idiosyncratic views of one editor. [[User:Seminarist|Seminarist]] 21:14, May 8, 2008 (UTC)
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| − | == Turcescu's Misreading of Zizioulas ==
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| − | Turcescu criticizes the Metropolitan on the question of person versus individual by indicating that St Gregory of Nyssa sometime uses ἄτομον (''atomon'') “to express the notion of the person.” Of the Cappadocians, only St Gregory uses ''atomon'' as equivalent to ''hypostasis'' or ''prosopon''. So one could stop here and say that only one of the Cappadocians followed a usage contrary to the Metropolitan’s reading. But that would still leave a misimpression. For if one thought that St Gregory was saying atomon as predicated of human persons could be predicated of divine persons ''simpliciter'', we would be left with the heresy of tritheism. But St Gregory was not foolish, which is why he never said any such thing. The other Fathers (Cappadocian or otherwise) never run the risk of confusing someone (such as Turcescu and his fervent disciple, Cebactokpatop) by using ''atomon'' as equivalent to person. While we find the Orthodox confession of three ''hypostaseis'' or three ''prosopa'', nowhere in Orthodox theology do we find the confession of three ''atoma''. Thus Turcescu’s criticism of the Metropolitan’s refusal to equate ''atomon'' with either ''prosopon'' or ''hypostasis'' can only by employed in a defense of tritheism. While at no point on these pages has Cebactokpatop ever read someone else’s posts charitably, I will give him the benefit of the doubt and not infer that he is arguing for tritheism. And if I am right about his intent (I am no mind reader, as he pointed out), then he needs to consider revising his support of Turcescu’s argument. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 00:40, May 9, 2008 (UTC)
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