Well, technically it isn't a tradition of the pre-Schism West, as Sarum Cathedral was dedicated in 1092, and the Sarum as known from the texts dates from New Salisbury in the 13th c. That it is essentially no different than Pre-Schism Frankish and Celtic-Saxon Roman traditions is witnessed to by contemporaries, but the Use itself is definitely post-Schism. All surviving documents of the Sarum use are post-LePoore, in fact.

: Noted. --[[User:ASDamick|Rdr. Andrew]] 21:27, 24 Mar 2005 (CST)

One last point on 'YBeayf''s criticisms. He calls the BCP 1549 "Protestantized service with a few bits filched from the authentic Catholic rite of England." Of course, the authentic Catholic rite of England *is* the Sarum Use. It had been the majority use for 300 years previously (as well as Ireland and Scotland.) As for 'Protestantized', of course, but to be '-ized', one has to have an original to changed. That original would be - the sole authentic Catholic rite readily available to the English: the Sarum Use. [[User:Aristibule|Ari]] 16:22, March 7, 2006 (CST)

:No, I didn't say that. I said "English BCP communion service", without specifying a year. The 1549 Book of Common Prayer is not what first comes to mind to most people when one mentions the "BCP".

:I have not seen this blog posting which you reference; rest assured that any contention here is purely of my own making. My objection to saying the BCP (post-1552) is rooted in the Sarum usage of the Roman rite is that the essence of the mass, the offertory and canon, are changed beyond recognition. Of course the general structure of the BCP service mirrors the Sarum usage, but it is IMO rather tendentious to claim this roots the BCP service in the Sarum usage when the most important parts of the Sarum are not carried over, and the framework of the BCP service and the Sarum usage are common to all Latin rites. Nevertheless, I will cease fighting to have that sentence removed. I have, however, added a small clarification, which I hope will be allowed to stand. [[User:YBeayf|YBeayf]] 17:42, March 8, 2006 (CST)

:: This "...in that the creators of the ''Book of Common Prayer'' used the Sarum missal as a springboard for their reformed liturgy." is not a clarification, but simply redundant repetition of 'primary origin with Sarum use'. They say the exact same thing, but without the colloquialism of 'springboard'. I'm not sure what one means by 'most important parts of the Sarum', but it doesn't change the fact of *primary origin*. See: http://flickr.com/photos/21182585@N00/1434369/ for a chart describing the origins of the rites. The ROCOR English Use is from the 1549 BCP with restorations according to Sarum, York, the Gothic Missal. Answering Fr. Lev's post, the lineage of the St. Tikhon's is not all that far removed. The American 1928 BCP was a more catholicized form of the earlier American Prayer Book, that tradition having its origin with the Scottish Non-Juror liturgy (that which Seabury brought from Scotland to America). The Scottish Non-Jurors use not only had the indirect source of Laud's prayer book, but also has evidence of using the 1549 BCP, Sarum, and other uses (especially the contemporary translations of the liturgies of St. Clement, St. James, etc.) More below... [[User:Aristibule|Ari]] 11:41, March 12, 2006 (CST)

::I think this is some good conversation, with some very interesting detail. Just a word to keep things civil - please avoid ad hominem attacks like "whoever so-and-so is" -- these aren't necessary or helpful! Let's focus on history and fact, presenting arguments based on evidence. Please provide as full citations as possible. The talk page is the proper place to note POV's and divergences of opinion.

::Finally, I'm not sure why Western Rite topics are some of the most contentious on the wiki. From the outside, it doesn't seem like much of a big deal. Authenticity doesn't need to be based on an esoteric historical trail of influence, but follows episcopal blessing and acceptance by the Church. Then again, I don't have a personal stake in any of this, and I realize WR people may feel that they are fighting hard to keep alive a particular vision of the catholicity of the Church. Peace to you! {{User:FrJohn/sig}}

-

:I recall that they were very similar in most places. The 1886 book (Latin translation) is available for complete downlaod - about 16MB in PDF format. I had located it in the University of Toronto's Robarts Reference Library originally. Since it is apparently so close to the St Petroc document (except in those places where changes were made to make it Orthodox), I am wondering if the original Latin translated in this 1886 book from London was the original Latin Sarum Use, or one of these later derivations spoken of above (1549, 1552, etc)? I cannot tell from the introduction. But I think it woukld be good to verify if this 1886 edition is a translatuion of the original and true Latin Sarum Use.

:If it is original, and if I am right that it closely matches the Sarum Liturgy published by St Petroc, then it speaks to its veracity? (Not sure if this will help the discussion but I wanted at least to draw attention to the similarities).

Cheers

[[User:Angellight 888|Angellight 888]] 23:21, August 26, 2008 (UTC)

I have a better solution, Father Ben.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 14:12, August 25, 2008 (UTC)