|
|
| (19 intermediate revisions by 8 users not shown) |
| Line 1: |
Line 1: |
| − | == Romanian documents about ECOF== | + | == [[Talk:Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow]] == |
| | | | |
| − | Le Patriarcat Roumain
| + | I've rolled the Talk page back, as per your request. —[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 01:56, August 6, 2008 (UTC) |
| − | Le département des relations ecclésiastiques extérieures
| |
| − | Roumanie
| |
| | | | |
| − | 423/3.III.1993
| + | Many thanks! --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 02:04, August 6, 2008 (UTC) |
| | | | |
| − | A son Excellence l’évêque Germain de St Denis
| |
| − | Paris France
| |
| | | | |
| − | VOTRE EXCELLENCE
| + | == Edits to Great Schism == |
| | | | |
| − | Nous portons à votre connaissance que le saint Synode de l’Eglise Roumaine, dans sa session de travail du 23 janvier 1993, a de nouveau examiné la situation de Votre Excellence et de l’Evêché Orthodoxe Catholique de France,
| + | Fr. |
| | | | |
| − | Comme Vous savez, en 1972, ce diocèse Français, à la demande instante de ses représentants, a été reçu par le patriarcat Roumain sous sa juridiction, afin de lui offrir, par économie ecclésiastique, la communion canonique de même que la possibilité de s’intégrer dans l’ensemble de l’Orthodoxie et de progresser spirituellement.
| + | With all due respect, the form of date 1054 A.D. is correct english. I don't understand the edit. |
| | | | |
| − | Peu de temps après avoir été reçu sous notre juridiction et après le sacre épiscopal de Votre excellence, au sein du diocèse et dans Votre activité commencèrent à se manifester. diverses erreurs d’ordre dogmatique, liturgique et de discipline canonique, ainsi que des enseignements et des pratiques contraires à l’orthodoxie universelle, qui ne firent que se multiplier avec le temps continuant à présent encore et étant maintes fois portées à notre connaissance.
| + | Jaye (Jacifus) |
| | | | |
| − | Au long de toutes ces années, le Saint synode, dans l’Esprit de la charité chrétienne et de la tolérance à l’égard de votre excellence et du clergé et des fidèles de l’Evêché Orthodoxe Catholique de France, a fait de considérables efforts pour vous aider à faire remédier les erreurs et à redresser la vie religieuse de ce diocèse, afin que vous puissiez entrer dans la communion de l’orthodoxie universelle.
| + | : Following Latin, the more traditional syntax is to place ''AD'' before the number (e.g., AD 1054), though the reverse is now becoming more common. —[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 22:38, December 4, 2008 (UTC) |
| | | | |
| − | Par conséquent vous avez été maintes fois invité par le patriarcat Roumain de participer, accompagné par vos collaborateurs, à des discussions dans le cadre de diverses commissions synodales. Chaque fois ont été dressés des protocoles et vous avez signé des engagements et des déclarations (1974,1976, 1978,1979, 1982, 1985, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990), stipulant que vous allez vous intégrer dans l’orthodoxie universelle. Vous les avez cependant chaque fois ignorés et transgressés sciemment, faisant preuve de désobéissance et d ‘insoumission.
| + | The ''Chicago Manual of Style'' indicates that AD should be used without periods and should precede the year. ''Anno Domini'' means "in the year of our Lord," so it would look odd to write "1054 in the year of our Lord." Personally, I would prefer using "CE" instead of "AD." As scholars agree that Christ was born in or around 4 BCE, it seems very odd to have to say that Christ was born "four years Before Christ." --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 01:34, December 5, 2008 (UTC) |
| | | | |
| − | Etant donné que vous n’avez pas respecté les susdits protocoles, les déclarations et vos propres engagements de vous intégrer effectivement et sincèrement avec le diocèse dans l’orthodoxie universelle ;
| + | ==Talk:Sarum Use== |
| | + | Hello Fr, |
| | + | I was trying to add some comments to this page, and when i tried to save it removed all existing comments. Tried to undo the revision, and the undo did not save. Not able to restore,,can you please help?? Thanks, |
| | + | [[User:Angellight 888|Angellight 888]] 20:51, August 26, 2008 (UTC) |
| | | | |
| − | Compte tenu de l’attitude permanente de désobéissance et de la transgression délibérée de vos propres engagements quant à l’observation et de la doctrine et de la pratique de la vie religieuse orthodoxe,
| + | ==Help on [[misotheism]] article== |
| | + | Hello Father I was hoping for some help on the misotheism article. |
| | + | [[User:LoveMonkey|LoveMonkey]] 17:08, August 30, 2008 (UTC) |
| | | | |
| − | Le saint synode de l’Eglise Orthodoxe Roumaine a décidé de retirer définitivement la juridiction canonique de l’Eglise orthodoxe roumaine à Votre excellence et à l’Evêché Orthodoxe catholique de France. Par conséquent, l’exercice de toute fonction épiscopale vous est désormais défendu. Toute correspondance reçue de Votre part à ce sujet ne sera plus prise en considération.
| + | == Wikipedia article == |
| | | | |
| − | Il a été également décidé que les prêtres ou les communautés du respectif diocèse qui souhaiteraient maintenir les liens canoniques avec L’Orthodoxie universelle puissent s’adresser à cet effet aux juridictions canoniques orthodoxes locales.
| + | Hi. Thanks so much for contributing yesterday on the Wikipedia talk page for "Catholic–Eastern Orthodox theological differences". I hope we could convince you (and others) to join in further over there, especially in the "discussion" (?) that has been going on regarding the nature of the physical human body. There are really only two editors "working (?) on this article right now, and they're mostly locked in an edit war over the writings of Vladimir Lossky and whether his view (essentially, as I understand it, that our material bodies didn't exist before the fall and won't exist after the resurrection) represents mainstream Orthodox belief or not. I've got a nagging suspicion that this may be a "creative" interpretation of what the Apostle Paul meant when he talked about the resurrection in I Corinthians 15 — but I fear there isn't much hope for a solution on Wikipedia unless we can get more knowledgeable Orthodox (or at least Orthodoxy-knowledgeable) people involved on the article — something that just doesn't seem to be happening so far. [[User:Richwales|Richwales]] 03:55, August 31, 2010 (UTC) |
| | | | |
| − | Les susdites décisions seront communiquées aussi au conseil diocésain de l’Evêché Orthodoxe Catholique de France, aux prêtres appartenant à ce diocèse, au Comité Inter-épiscopal orthodoxe de Paris et aux Eglises Orthodoxes sœurs.
| + | == Invitation to a Conversation == |
| − | Avec le regret que le patriarcat roumain ait été contraint de prendre de telles mesures disciplinaires, nous prions le Seigneur de vous accorder son aide et sa lumière et de vous protéger dans la grâce miséricordieuse ;
| |
| | | | |
| − | Président du saint Synode
| + | Fr. Lev, I have left a lengthy question about contraception over at [[Talk:Birth Control and Contraception#The_Theology_of_the_Body]]. I have benefited from what you have contributed in that talk section. I am reaching out in good faith to see what I can learn from you. If you have any comments, either public or private, they would be very welcome. |
| − | + Théoctiste
| |
| − | Patriarche de l’Eglise orthodoxe Roumaine
| |
| − | | |
| − | Secrétaire du Saint synode,
| |
| − | + Evêque Nifon Ploiesteanul
| |
| − | Vicaire patriarcal
| |
| − | | |
| − | PATRIARHIA ROMANA
| |
| − | CANCELARIA SFANTULUI SINOD
| |
| − | SECTORUL PENTRU RELATII EXTERNE BISERICESTI
| |
| − | | |
| − | AVIS D’EXPERTISE CANONIQUE
| |
| − | | |
| − | No 9 /3 Janvier 2001
| |
| − | | |
| − | Après une suite d’erreurs de l’ex-évêque Germain de Saint Denis, le Saint Synode de l’Eglise orthodoxe Roumaine a été obligé de prendre la. décision disciplinaire de lui interdire l’exercice de toutes fonctions épiscopales. Cette décision no. 423 / 1993, ci-après annexée, a été communiquée aux intéressés par une lettre du 3 mars 1993, ci-incluse.
| |
| − | | |
| − | Pour expliciter cette décision du Saint Synode nous précisons que “retirer définitivement la juridiction canonique” et ‘l’exercice de route fonction épiscopale vous est désormais défendu” signifient du point de vue canonique que l’ex-évêque Germain est exclu de l’épiscopat (c’est à dire la déposition), et est réduit â l’état laïc et ainsi n’a plus le droit de célébrer la Sainte Liturgie, ni aucun office religieux, ni de effectuer des ordinations et dispenser les Saints Sacrements, ni de conduire une communauté cultuelle orthodoxe. Par suite il n’est reçu par aucune autre juridiction Orthodoxe.
| |
| − | | |
| − | Contrairement à la décision du Saint Synode de l’Eglise orthodoxe Roumaine, l’ex-évêque Germain, aggrave sa situation ecclésiale en poursuivant l’exercice des fonctions épiscopales, et ainsi tombe sous l’incidence des canons l’excluant de l’Eglise. Tout acte de culte et d’autorité excercé par un évêque après sa déposition sont nuls de fait et de droit (28eme règle apostolique et no. 4 du concile d’Antioche 74ème règle apostolique 9 et 17 du IV concile oecuménique et no. 15 du concile d’ Antioche). Les ordinations pourront être soumises par économie à l’examen de l’autorité canonique.
| |
| − | | |
| − | En continuant ses errements et passant au delà de toutes règles canoniques l’ex-évêque Germain, M. Gilles BERTRAND-HARDY, en se mariant est tombé définitivement de son état épiscopal et conformément aux Saints Canons la sanction appliquée par le Saint Synode pourrait être l’anathème, (no. 6 du VI concile oecuménique, no. I Néocésarée et no 12 et 48 du VI concile oecuménique).
| |
| − | | |
| − | En conclusion, par application des Saints Canons cités qui sont valabLes dans toutes les Eglises orthodoxes, l’ex-évêque Germain, M. Gilles BERTRAND-HARDY non seulement aperdu sa qualité d'évêque mais de plus encourt l’exclusion de l’Eglise orthodoxe,
| |
| − | | |
| − | Le secrétariat du Saint Synode de l’Eglise orthodoxe Roumaine
| |
| − | | |
| − | Evêque Ambrosie Sinaitul Vicaire administratif
| |
| − | P. Constantin Parvu
| |
| − | Vicaire Patriarcal
| |
| − | | |
| − | '''I hope you wont,like fr Lev, considers Romanian Orthodox Church like a liar, dictatorial church having made no canonical trial to B Germain before deposing him.
| |
| − | And all canonical dioceses in France: liar too ???'''
| |
| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | Fr Lev., bless. I am from Romanian Orthodox Church, and I've been part of all these events with ECOF. I've all documents, and met all protagonists. All informations are true: you want more details ?
| |
| − | In France, you can ask every canonical jurisdiction about this. More, you can obtain informations from the Romanian Mitropolia.
| |
| − | Gilles Bertrand Hardy was married with Constance (Nathalie) de Castelbajac in 1995. Still live with her. Have you seen the divorce judgement ? NO.It doesn't exist.
| |
| − | Romanian documents (1993 and 2001)states that Germain is deposed, and reduced to laity state. You can check. Every Church follow these decision, by refusing communion with him and his clergy.
| |
| − | You probably know there are even worst things to say...
| |
| − | You must allow me to write Romanian Church considers Germain deposed, and in France ECOF is non-canonical. We can write that ECOF is not ok with that, considers itself as an autocephal orthodox church, but facts are here.
| |
| − | I join comments from french quality websites like orthodoxie.com. | |
| − | Please to meet you, from wich Church are you ?
| |
| − | Forgive me and pray for me
| |
| − | | |
| − | :[[User:Gilkerie]] writes "You must allow me to write Romanian Church considers Germain deposed, and in France ECOF is non-canonical. We can write that ECOF is not ok with that, considers itself as an autocephal orthodox church, but facts are here." -- Without being familiar with this history at all, this makes sense to me and does not sound unfair. We should strive for the best documentation on this possible. — [[User:FrJohn|<b>FrJohn</b>]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&action=edit§ion=new talk]) 00:12, June 1, 2007 (PDT)
| |
| − | | |
| − | '''Texte gras'''SITUATION IN FRANCE'''Texte gras'''
| |
| − | I think it is quite important to inform readers about the situation as it is. And, in France, all the canonical Orthodoxy considers ECOF being non-canonical, and bishop Germain deposed. You can ask every diocese, the A.E.O.F, St Serge Institute... | |
| − | When a laity come to join a canonical diocese, what happens ? If he was a member of ECOF after 1993, he receive anointment of Myrron, the sacrament of Confirmation or "Chrismation" as in baptisma. And then only he can receive holy gifts.
| |
| − | If it is a member of ECOF clergy after 1993, he is examinated by a canonical commission, and if there is no problems, is ordained by a canonical bishop.
| |
| − | That clearly means that for Orthodox Church in France (canonical one), ECOF is non-canonical and its sacraments after 1993 have no value.
| |
| − | | |
| − | It does not mean that situation is fair, that Germain and ECOF were wrong, but that's the situation, as it is.
| |
| − | | |
| − | Most, to say the truth, nearly all french orthodoxs were formed and instructed by ECOF, french traductions were done by ECOF, and still of a very high quality. Contribution of ECOF to French Orthodoxy is enormous and well known. There are ex-members of ECOF in all dioceses of canonical churches established in France, most french priests come from ECOF. French orthodoxs still grateful to ECOF, its foundators like bishop Jean, Maxime Kovalevsky (his litugical chant is still used for instance in Romanian Deanery)and all the work done.
| |
| − | Bishop Marc (Alric), vicar of Metropolitan Joseph, was a member of ECOF!
| |
| − | So, every body knows the true story of ECOF, and the subject stills touchy and painful to many french orthodoxs.
| |
| − | That 's why we cannot, to my opinion, let false or incomplete informations about its canonical status written.
| |
| − | People who want to join ECOF must know the truth, and choose to embrase the situation of canonical isolation, the western rite, difficulties about M.Germain must be accepted and so on. They can choose to fight this situation, by considering like fr Lev ECOF is right.
| |
I've rolled the Talk page back, as per your request. —Fr. Andrew talk contribs (THINK!) 01:56, August 6, 2008 (UTC)
Many thanks! --Fr Lev 02:04, August 6, 2008 (UTC)
Edits to Great Schism
Fr.
With all due respect, the form of date 1054 A.D. is correct english. I don't understand the edit.
Jaye (Jacifus)
- Following Latin, the more traditional syntax is to place AD before the number (e.g., AD 1054), though the reverse is now becoming more common. —Fr. Andrew talk contribs (THINK!) 22:38, December 4, 2008 (UTC)
The Chicago Manual of Style indicates that AD should be used without periods and should precede the year. Anno Domini means "in the year of our Lord," so it would look odd to write "1054 in the year of our Lord." Personally, I would prefer using "CE" instead of "AD." As scholars agree that Christ was born in or around 4 BCE, it seems very odd to have to say that Christ was born "four years Before Christ." --Fr Lev 01:34, December 5, 2008 (UTC)
Talk:Sarum Use
Hello Fr,
I was trying to add some comments to this page, and when i tried to save it removed all existing comments. Tried to undo the revision, and the undo did not save. Not able to restore,,can you please help?? Thanks,
Angellight 888 20:51, August 26, 2008 (UTC)
Hello Father I was hoping for some help on the misotheism article.
LoveMonkey 17:08, August 30, 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia article
Hi. Thanks so much for contributing yesterday on the Wikipedia talk page for "Catholic–Eastern Orthodox theological differences". I hope we could convince you (and others) to join in further over there, especially in the "discussion" (?) that has been going on regarding the nature of the physical human body. There are really only two editors "working (?) on this article right now, and they're mostly locked in an edit war over the writings of Vladimir Lossky and whether his view (essentially, as I understand it, that our material bodies didn't exist before the fall and won't exist after the resurrection) represents mainstream Orthodox belief or not. I've got a nagging suspicion that this may be a "creative" interpretation of what the Apostle Paul meant when he talked about the resurrection in I Corinthians 15 — but I fear there isn't much hope for a solution on Wikipedia unless we can get more knowledgeable Orthodox (or at least Orthodoxy-knowledgeable) people involved on the article — something that just doesn't seem to be happening so far. Richwales 03:55, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
Invitation to a Conversation
Fr. Lev, I have left a lengthy question about contraception over at Talk:Birth Control and Contraception#The_Theology_of_the_Body. I have benefited from what you have contributed in that talk section. I am reaching out in good faith to see what I can learn from you. If you have any comments, either public or private, they would be very welcome.
