Talk:Western Rite and Old Calendarists
Russian Orthodoxy and Western Rite
The Russian Orthodox Western Rite outside of Europe did not go to the Ukrainians, it went to ROCOR with Mount Royal monastery. The misunderstanding may center around Francis Brothers - who was an Old Catholic bishop who got consecration in the 'Living Church', and was later received by the Moscow Patriarchate in 1962 as a priest. He left Orthodoxy within a year, and began to operate as an independent Old Catholic bishop after that time. Mount Royal monastery stayed with Orthodoxy, and did not follow Brothers. Aristibule
France?
I don't know why the Orthodox Church of France is mentioned in this article; they aren't Old Calendar. --Fr Lev 04:28, April 28, 2008 (UTC)
France
I was under the impression that they were at one point on the Old Calendar-- since it appears one of their American parishes uses the Old Calendar. That said, their history is very much tied into the history of the Russian Church Abroad as the ROCOR was beginning a period of deeper isolation from official Orthodoxy, which nurtured a catastrophist position.--JosephSuaiden 12:57, May 2, 2008 (UTC)
I believe that France was New Calendar even while under the protection of Archibsihop (Saint) John Maximovitch and ROCOR. They were not the only ones in ROCOR using the New Calendar. More controversially, the Church of France follows the Western Paschalion. No parishes of the French Church in France are Old Calendar. The fact that there is an American parish that observes the Old Calendar is idiosyncratic, so I don't think France has a place in this article. --Fr Lev 13:19, May 2, 2008 (UTC)
You may well be right, Father. I will check the history, and if this is the case, I think at the least that should be noted in every instance of the French Church's mention in the article as soon as humanly possible. I am loath to remove reference to them altogether, because the ideological stance of the French Church as against the stance of the more "mainline" Western rite groupings matches more the thinking that is found in Milan and ROCOR Sarum parishes (what I call "catastrophic"), which do use the Old Calendar. (However, it should be noted that in those same circles I have heard the argument adduced that even before the schism, the French Church was using a pre-schism Roman Rite.) I may well be misreading them, however, and am open to correction. --Suaiden 15:48, May 4, 2008 (UTC)
As of yesterday, I did ask the priest of L'ECOF in America if what you said was correct. I have corrected the page accordingly. --Suaiden 00:23, May 15, 2008 (UTC)
ROCOR and ECOF
This is grossly inaccurate: "In Europe, the ROCOR's role in the formation of the Church of France is undisputed, as the Church's existence was blessed by St John of Shanghai and San Francisco. However, the majority of the Church of France's parishes in France are on the New Calendar." 1. The Church of France was established in 1936 by Moscow. It was over two decades before St John became the archpastor for ECOF. 2. I know of NO parish in ECOF (in France) that uses the Old Calendar. --Fr Lev 00:35, May 15, 2008 (UTC)
It is possible to just correct it.... L'ECOF had no Bishop until St John of Shanghai, and therefore couldn't perpetuate itself. As for the calendar, that was just a mistake. Will update accordingly.... --Suaiden 19:54, May 16, 2008 (UTC)
Updated. --Suaiden 19:58, May 16, 2008 (UTC)
An Editorial, Not an Entry
The original version of this page represents a blog entry or a Milan Synod editorial, not a Wikipage of any sort. It is factually erroneous, self-contradictory, poorly written, and violates NPV standards.
The article claims Western Rite parishes make up a "substantial portion" of Old Calendarists; in fact, "Numerically, Western-rite Old calendar communities outnumber every other jurisdiction of traditionalist Orthodox communities in the United States." If this were true, it would mean there are more Western Rite Old Calendarists than Byzantines in ROCOR, Moscow, Serbia, Bulgaria, and the Jerusalem Patriarchate, not to mention the schismatic "Greek Old Calendarists."
It then claims, "There are parishes under the Orthodox Church of France using the Old Calendar (this is not the case, according to a priest of L'ECOF, in France)." Well, which is it?
Then it falsely asserts, "some under the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia using the Sarum Rite, though how important the use of the Old Calendar is among them is the subject of debate." First, Fr. James Deschene and Fr. Anthony Nelson are Old Calendarists who use the traditional Liturgy of St. Gregory. Secondly, there is no "debate" as to the obedience of Frs. James, Anthony, Michael (of St. Petroc), Barry, nor the ROCOR faithful.
The rest of the article is a long editorial pushing an agenda: to inveigh against the canonical Western Rite. There are alleged philosophies that supposedly "color" the views of WRO. That Western Rite parishes would be reabsorbed by Rome, Canterbury, and/or Antioch "was an unavoidable (and foregone) conclusion with the Antiochians." (!) There is alleged "hostility" between Old Calendarists and Antiochians (news to Fr. James and Fr. Paul Schneirla), etc., etc.
It is merely an editorial proselytizing for the Milan Synod, or at least besmirching canonical Western Rite Orthodoxy. Either way, it has no business here. I've edited it as much as the facts will support, but I don't know if the stub will support a full article or if this stub should just be deleted, probably the latter. --Willibrord 23:28, June 24, 2008 (UTC)
- Just as a note: Old Calendarist is used on this site to refer to those groups which have broken communion with the mainstream Orthodox Church primarily or initially over the question of the calendar, not those mainstream Orthodox churches who happen to use the Julian calendar and remain in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy. —Fr. Andrew talk contribs (THINK!) 00:22, June 25, 2008 (UTC)