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Talk:Western Rite and Old Calendarists

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==Russian Orthodoxy and Western Rite==
The Russian Orthodox Western Rite outside of Europe did not go to the Ukrainians, it went to ROCOR with Mount Royal monastery. The misunderstanding may center around Francis Brothers - who was an Old Catholic bishop who got consecration in the 'Living Church', and was later received by the Moscow Patriarchate in 1962 as a priest. He left Orthodoxy within a year, and began to operate as an independent Old Catholic bishop after that time. Mount Royal monastery stayed with Orthodoxy, and did not follow Brothers. [[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]
 
I didn't go into that here,however Metropolitan William did not claim to be Old Catholic, but Orthodox by the time of his death. He left the MP because he did not trust going to Soviet Russia to be ordained a Bishop. Those communities later joined the Milan Synod. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 20:48, July 18, 2008 (UTC)
 
You've been misinformed. Brothers did claim to be Old Catholic - from the time he left his priesthood in the Russian Orthodox Church, until his death - as the Metropolitan Archbishop of the Old Catholic Church in America. He had already gone to Soviet Russia before when he was 'consecrated' by the Living Church movement. Within a year of being received into Orthodoxy by Bp Dositheus (Russian Orthodox - not 'Living Church'), he left to perform Old Catholic consecrations as an Old Catholic bishop: unaware he had been elected as a bishop of the Russian Orthodox Church. The leadership passed to Dom Augustine (Whitfield) who took the body into ROCOR - where it remains to this day. 'Metropolitan-Archbishop Brothers' most interesting activity was in Ecumenicism: where he supported the claims and ministry of "Father Divine", as well as Billy Graham. The only contact with Orthodoxy he ever had was the one year he was a priest of Mount Royal under Bishop Dositheus. His 'communities' that joined the Milan Synod were Old Catholic, and never had Orthodox orders. The only community that he was ever associated with that became Orthodox was Mount Royal - and its former members (including novices) are to this day either still in ROCOR, the MP, or with the Antiochians. It helps to have access to archives - and the people who lived through it.You might find some illumination here: http://sourcebook.oldcatholichistory.org/index.php?name=Sections&req=viewarticle&artid=75&page=1
[[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]
 
==France?==
I don't know why the Orthodox Church of France is mentioned in this article; they aren't Old Calendar. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 04:28, April 28, 2008 (UTC)
 
== France ==
 
I was under the impression that they were at one point on the Old Calendar-- since it appears one of their American parishes uses the Old Calendar. That said, their history is very much tied into the history of the Russian Church Abroad as the ROCOR was beginning a period of deeper isolation from official Orthodoxy, which nurtured a catastrophist position.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 12:57, May 2, 2008 (UTC)
 
I believe that France was New Calendar even while under the protection of Archibsihop (Saint) John Maximovitch and ROCOR. They were not the only ones in ROCOR using the New Calendar. More controversially, the Church of France follows the Western Paschalion. No parishes of the French Church in France are Old Calendar. The fact that there is an American parish that observes the Old Calendar is idiosyncratic, so I don't think France has a place in this article. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 13:19, May 2, 2008 (UTC)
 
You may well be right, Father. I will check the history, and if this is the case, I think at the least that should be noted in every instance of the French Church's mention in the article as soon as humanly possible. I am loath to remove reference to them altogether, because the ideological stance of the French Church as against the stance of the more "mainline" Western rite groupings matches more the thinking that is found in Milan and ROCOR Sarum parishes (what I call "catastrophic"), which do use the Old Calendar. (However, it should be noted that in those same circles I have heard the argument adduced that even before the schism, the French Church was using a pre-schism Roman Rite.) I may well be misreading them, however, and am open to correction. --[[User:Suaiden|Suaiden]] 15:48, May 4, 2008 (UTC)
 
As of yesterday, I did ask the priest of L'ECOF in America if what you said was correct. I have corrected the page accordingly. --[[User:Suaiden|Suaiden]] 00:23, May 15, 2008 (UTC)
 
== ROCOR and ECOF ==
 
This is grossly inaccurate: "In Europe, the ROCOR's role in the formation of the Church of France is undisputed, as the Church's existence was blessed by St John of Shanghai and San Francisco. However, the majority of the Church of France's parishes in France are on the New Calendar." 1. The Church of France was established in 1936 by Moscow. It was over two decades before St John became the archpastor for ECOF. 2. I know of NO parish in ECOF (in France) that uses the Old Calendar. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 00:35, May 15, 2008 (UTC)
 
It is possible to just correct it.... L'ECOF had no Bishop until St John of Shanghai, and therefore couldn't perpetuate itself. As for the calendar, that was just a mistake. Will update accordingly.... --[[User:Suaiden|Suaiden]] 19:54, May 16, 2008 (UTC)
 
Updated. --[[User:Suaiden|Suaiden]] 19:58, May 16, 2008 (UTC)
 
It is not correct to say that the Church of France had no bishop until Archbishop (Saint) John (Maximovitch). The Church of France was under the PAtriarchate of Moscow, which has bishops. There is one and only one priest under the omophorion of the bishop of the Orthodox Church of France who uses an Old Calendar reckoning of the date, but I'm not sure this is what is conveyed by saying he is onl the Old Calendar. He follows the calendar of the Church of France, which is Western, only he observes this Western calendar 13 days after everyone else. In any event, the existence of one priest being given permission to so reckon the calendar doesn't warrant including France in this article. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 20:13, July 18, 2008 (UTC)
 
== An Editorial, Not an Entry ==
: Just as a note: ''[[Old Calendarist]]'' is used on this site to refer to those groups which have broken communion with the mainstream Orthodox Church primarily or initially over the question of the calendar, not those mainstream Orthodox churches who happen to use the Julian calendar and remain in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy. &mdash;[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 00:22, June 25, 2008 (UTC)
 
::I note nearly all the same inaccuracies were restored. (It was "an unavoidable (and foregone) conclusion" that AWRV parishes would be reabsorbed by the Papacy, Canterbury, and/or the Anglican Continuum? A most indefensible of many such assertions in this editorial. I wonder where one could verify how many parishes the Old Calendarists have overall (all synods), and how many are Western Rite? The assertion that there are more WR GOCs than ER GOCs seems dubious. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:58, August 2, 2008 (UTC)
There was NO editorial.
::On reading this article, I was confused...then I realised something. There's _very_ little in this article that has anything to do with Old Calendarists and the Western Rite. Lots to do with the philosophies of the WR, motives...but the title, as I understand it, is rather misleading, and refers to - at most - the introduction and one or two paragraphs. &mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at 00:12, July 19, 2008 (UTC)
 
::::That's it, exactly. As I wrote, this is merely private opinion about WR. And OrthodoxWiki is not the place for private opinions. I've edited it, attempting to make this read more like an encyclopedia entry then a private blog. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:58, August 2, 2008 (UTC)
::: That's my impression, as well. It seems to me that most of this analytical material should be elsewhere, though I'm not really sure where.
::::: I think that this article is a bit of personal ideology - I don't know that it accurately represents the approach of any group. It sure doesn't represent ROCOR (our Holy Synod's ukases on Western Rite do). Personally, my vote for a Sysop for WR would be someone who knew those involved with the Western Rite (AWRV, ROCOR, MP) and has access to the clergy and the archival material.I know that Fr. Michael of Saint Petroc monastery has done some editing here - he might be someone to ask (though he is often busy.) But, he does have the breadth of knowledge. Otherwise, Willibrord if pretty fair, for Byzantine rite clergy. ... back to an earlier question: why the subject attracts controversy... mostly because there are a few small groups external to the Western rite that have particular agendas, and hope to use (or abuse) Western rite towards their own goals. IF Orthodox Wiki is an encyclopedia of Orthodoxy, it should represent the accepted majority view of the Western Rite in Orthodoxy: at this point, that is the Russian Western Rite and the Antiochian Western Rite. Domination and harassment from other parties is mostly what makes us Western Rite Orthodox come here - hoping at the least to defend against (yet again) more attacks, misrepresentations, or to tie up our thinly-spread resources on controversial argumentation. [[Aristibule|Aristibule]]
:::::: Aristibule has it just right. This is private opinion and does not accurately represent anyone's views. This advocacy and private opinion simply has no place on OrthodoxWiki. Incidentally, Aristibule would be a great Sysop for WR matters; he's proven his knowledge and fairness throughout. (See the discussion section of any WR article, or how he has set the record straight on William Henry Francis Brothers' legacy.) --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:58, August 2, 2008 (UTC)
::::I'd be putting some of it in [[Western Rite in the Nineteenth Century]] or [[Western Rite in the Twentieth Century]] articles (the bits that aren't there already, anyway), but a lot of it is not universally accepted (thinking of the the 'catastrophist' and 'developmental' positions) and would make very good opinion pieces, rather than encyclopaedia articles, IMHO. I think you may be right about the WR Sysop, though... &mdash; by [[User:Pistevo|<font color="green">Pιs</font><font color="gold">τévο</font>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Pistevo|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|<font color="red">complaints</font>]]''</sup> at 00:24, July 19, 2008 (UTC)
Please keep in mind the [[OrthodoxWiki:Style Manual#Controversial Subjects and Original Research|policy on controversial topics and original research]]. &mdash;[[User:ASDamick|<font size="3.5" color="green" face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">Fr. Andrew</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ASDamick|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sup> <small>[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|<font color="black">contribs</font>]] <font face="Adobe Garamond Pro, Garamond, Georgia, Times New Roman">('''[[User:ASDamick/Wiki-philosophy|THINK!]]''')</font></small> 11:35, July 19, 2008 (UTC)
 
 
==Russian Orthodoxy and Western Rite==
The Russian Orthodox Western Rite outside of Europe did not go to the Ukrainians, it went to ROCOR with Mount Royal monastery. The misunderstanding may center around Francis Brothers - who was an Old Catholic bishop who got consecration in the 'Living Church', and was later received by the Moscow Patriarchate in 1962 as a priest. He left Orthodoxy within a year, and began to operate as an independent Old Catholic bishop after that time. Mount Royal monastery stayed with Orthodoxy, and did not follow Brothers. [[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]
 
I didn't go into that here,however Metropolitan William did not claim to be Old Catholic, but Orthodox by the time of his death. He left the MP because he did not trust going to Soviet Russia to be ordained a Bishop. Those communities later joined the Milan Synod. --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 20:48, July 18, 2008 (UTC)
 
You've been misinformed. Brothers did claim to be Old Catholic - from the time he left his priesthood in the Russian Orthodox Church, until his death - as the Metropolitan Archbishop of the Old Catholic Church in America. He had already gone to Soviet Russia before when he was 'consecrated' by the Living Church movement. Within a year of being received into Orthodoxy by Bp Dositheus (Russian Orthodox - not 'Living Church'), he left to perform Old Catholic consecrations as an Old Catholic bishop: unaware he had been elected as a bishop of the Russian Orthodox Church. The leadership passed to Dom Augustine (Whitfield) who took the body into ROCOR - where it remains to this day. 'Metropolitan-Archbishop Brothers' most interesting activity was in Ecumenicism: where he supported the claims and ministry of "Father Divine", as well as Billy Graham. The only contact with Orthodoxy he ever had was the one year he was a priest of Mount Royal under Bishop Dositheus. His 'communities' that joined the Milan Synod were Old Catholic, and never had Orthodox orders. The only community that he was ever associated with that became Orthodox was Mount Royal - and its former members (including novices) are to this day either still in ROCOR, the MP, or with the Antiochians. It helps to have access to archives - and the people who lived through it.You might find some illumination here: http://sourcebook.oldcatholichistory.org/index.php?name=Sections&req=viewarticle&artid=75&page=1
[[User:Aristibule|Aristibule]]
 
==France?==
I don't know why the Orthodox Church of France is mentioned in this article; they aren't Old Calendar. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 04:28, April 28, 2008 (UTC)
 
== France ==
 
I was under the impression that they were at one point on the Old Calendar-- since it appears one of their American parishes uses the Old Calendar. That said, their history is very much tied into the history of the Russian Church Abroad as the ROCOR was beginning a period of deeper isolation from official Orthodoxy, which nurtured a catastrophist position.--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 12:57, May 2, 2008 (UTC)
 
I believe that France was New Calendar even while under the protection of Archibsihop (Saint) John Maximovitch and ROCOR. They were not the only ones in ROCOR using the New Calendar. More controversially, the Church of France follows the Western Paschalion. No parishes of the French Church in France are Old Calendar. The fact that there is an American parish that observes the Old Calendar is idiosyncratic, so I don't think France has a place in this article. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 13:19, May 2, 2008 (UTC)
 
You may well be right, Father. I will check the history, and if this is the case, I think at the least that should be noted in every instance of the French Church's mention in the article as soon as humanly possible. I am loath to remove reference to them altogether, because the ideological stance of the French Church as against the stance of the more "mainline" Western rite groupings matches more the thinking that is found in Milan and ROCOR Sarum parishes (what I call "catastrophic"), which do use the Old Calendar. (However, it should be noted that in those same circles I have heard the argument adduced that even before the schism, the French Church was using a pre-schism Roman Rite.) I may well be misreading them, however, and am open to correction. --[[User:Suaiden|Suaiden]] 15:48, May 4, 2008 (UTC)
 
As of yesterday, I did ask the priest of L'ECOF in America if what you said was correct. I have corrected the page accordingly. --[[User:Suaiden|Suaiden]] 00:23, May 15, 2008 (UTC)
 
== ROCOR and ECOF ==
 
This is grossly inaccurate: "In Europe, the ROCOR's role in the formation of the Church of France is undisputed, as the Church's existence was blessed by St John of Shanghai and San Francisco. However, the majority of the Church of France's parishes in France are on the New Calendar." 1. The Church of France was established in 1936 by Moscow. It was over two decades before St John became the archpastor for ECOF. 2. I know of NO parish in ECOF (in France) that uses the Old Calendar. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 00:35, May 15, 2008 (UTC)
 
It is possible to just correct it.... L'ECOF had no Bishop until St John of Shanghai, and therefore couldn't perpetuate itself. As for the calendar, that was just a mistake. Will update accordingly.... --[[User:Suaiden|Suaiden]] 19:54, May 16, 2008 (UTC)
 
Updated. --[[User:Suaiden|Suaiden]] 19:58, May 16, 2008 (UTC)
 
It is not correct to say that the Church of France had no bishop until Archbishop (Saint) John (Maximovitch). The Church of France was under the PAtriarchate of Moscow, which has bishops. There is one and only one priest under the omophorion of the bishop of the Orthodox Church of France who uses an Old Calendar reckoning of the date, but I'm not sure this is what is conveyed by saying he is onl the Old Calendar. He follows the calendar of the Church of France, which is Western, only he observes this Western calendar 13 days after everyone else. In any event, the existence of one priest being given permission to so reckon the calendar doesn't warrant including France in this article. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 20:13, July 18, 2008 (UTC)
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