Talk:Western Rite Criticism
I wanted to point out that you keep deleting an External Link that was added by one of the key Sysops of OrthodoxWiki. I have re-added it because I think that if ASDamick added it in the first place there is a reason for it. Besides, you can not delete a link simply because you do not agree with its content - especially since on this page they are stating the FOR and AGAINST arguments ... Regards, -- Vasiliki 16:48, February 12, 2008 (PST)
- I believe you are confused on two counts:
- 1. The link was not added by Fr. Andrew, but by "Juliandelphiki." That's clear if you look in the history. It was added to the original "Western Rite" article by "Ephremsyrianos" -- who also happens to be the proprietor of said blog.
- 2. I have not deleted this westernritecritic blog because I disagree with it; I disagree with the articles at Holy Trinity Cathedral (Fr. Michael Johnson, etc.), too. I removed it because it is neither a serious nor substantive blog and adds nothing above and beyond the articles already listed. Indeed, it appears to state the Western Rite Vicariate is somehow a harbinger of the "end times" (!). Those who have noticed it have either mocked it or lamented its existence as useless and destructive -- and these are observers outside the Orthodox Church. Let's keep the arguments substantive. -- User:Willibrord.
- I believe you are right that I was confused. When I did a History, the way I understood the screen was that it was added by ASDamick. It must be due to my relative newness to the site, I still dont use it 100% yet ... however, you seem to provide a substantial and logical reason for removing it ... so, i apologise for making the comment :-) No harm done in checking each others work ... so dont have taken it personally. -- Vasiliki 17:15, February 12, 2008 (PST)
- Willibrord, I was rather hoping that it would end up being a substantive weblog, but it honestly mainly seems to have as its central message "I don't like the WR and its adherents are a bunch of weasels" (or words to that effect). So I think eliminating the link on the grounds that it adds nothing of substance to the article is warranted. (It's also pretty clearly the work of an Agenda, which is rarely useful.) —Fr. Andrew talk contribs (THINK!) 18:26, February 12, 2008 (PST)
Contrary to the edit, many prayers and rites of the Liturgy of St. Tikhon are pre-Schism: the Aufer a Nobis, the Oramus te, the Collect for Purity, the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Nicene Creed, many of the propers, etc., etc. --Willibrord 05:34, February 16, 2009 (UTC)
That is ridiculous. By your definition a Lutheran liturgy is pre-schism.--JosephSuaiden 06:30, February 16, 2009 (UTC)
- Joseph, the entire paragraph you are editing is dedicated to saying it is not a dogmatic principle that WR liturgy must predate the Schism (whatever dating we use for that). Please review this topic sentence: "In contrast to this claim, others note that it is not a dogmatic principle of the Church that liturgical traditions can neither be revived nor created. After all, there are whole services even within the Byzantine Rite which are not universally practiced (e.g., the molieben), so they must have been invented somewhere along the way rather than being part of the typikon when it first came into the form we now know it." Thus, your addition is a strange, off-topic statement. And yes, some parts of the Liturgy of St. Tikhon are pre-Schism; that is, "the rites being used by Western Rite Orthodox Christians are not new, but mainly predate the Great Schism." If you dislike the Liturgy of St. Tikhon, that's fine; it's not fine to introduce off-topic, out-of-place comments on the matter. --Willibrord 06:36, February 16, 2009 (UTC)
I give up. Your repeated re-edits to pursue what appears to be an agenda are so obvious I don't have to restate them. That is not the purpose of this wiki, and frankly, I'm too tired to care. I hope the admins do, however.--JosephSuaiden 06:49, February 16, 2009 (UTC)
- From what I can tell, Joseph's addition is factually correct but not in the right context. Perhaps it could be added to another paragraph (perhaps a new one). —Fr. Andrew talk contribs (THINK!) 15:26, February 16, 2009 (UTC)
No thanks. I'd rather just concede than start a new edit war for which I will invariably be disciplined-- alone. I sense we will soon see a new flurry of new edits inspired by the evening's events. As one warned twice, I am in no position to stop them. --JosephSuaiden 15:30, February 16, 2009 (UTC)
- I think it falls under the concept of the "Liturgical Continuity" objection: that WRO has not continued unbroken within Orthodoxy since the Schism and/or that not all WR services are fully carbon-dated from "the Orthodox era." The rebuttal paragraph states services can be renewed and/or created by the Church. It seems odd to tack another form of the complaint (which was stated in the previous paragraph) onto its rebuttal. --Willibrord 17:24, February 16, 2009 (UTC)
Oh! Well, in that case that can be easily fixed.--JosephSuaiden 17:51, February 16, 2009 (UTC)
- The overarching issue is that it's unnecessary: the criticism has been made succinctly. And answered.--Willibrord 17:54, February 16, 2009 (UTC)