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John 15:18,19

If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

John 15:18And the point of this is? The Monophysites, Arians, and Gnostics all claimed that they were, likewise persecuted as these verses foretold. That there are questions raised about alleged practices such as denouncing the marriage bed as defiled--advising married couples to permanently abstain from conjugal relations--is not identical to "hatred". As I have pointed out, this could be a matter of misunderstanding of Athonite strictness and the vigor with which Athonites seem to prefer to express themselves. Affecting an air of "persecution" in response only invites greater investigation. Of course, nobody is ever hurt by truth, right?[[User:Dogface|Dogface]] 13:54, February 10, 2006 (CST)

:One of the main problems with heretics is that they never have the '''humility''' to even admit they are persecuted or weak (if they are/were at all persecuted). In fact, it was the Arians (to use your example) who were persecuting the Orthodox Church. The Orthodox Church was the "If weaker" party for some time, and Pope Athanasius was standing against the whole world hates , giving rise to the expression "''Athanasius contra mundum''".:The particular examples given in this video seem "out of context" (we are not told the full story or why a particular advice was given).:Pray for those who persecute you(Matthew 5:44), keep as the father in mind the video said, "we are praying for them". ::Umm... am I missing something? What "video" is being referred to here? Also, please sign your posts everybody!  ::I think that one thing we need to avoid in this controversy is the tendency to demonize one side or the other. The monks aren't perfect (as I trust they would admit), and neither are the monastery's critics. I think some people would have a hard time thinking that the monks are wrong about anything, though. Likewise, some people want to take an alarmist tone that totally passes over the role some of the criticized practices play within Orthodox tradition. {{User:FrJohn/sig}} :::This has been pretty much my point. The strictness of Athonite practices and the vigor with which it hated is expressed may be subject to misinterpretation in our culture. Likewise, the strong discipline under which the newly-admitted to a monastry live may be misinterpreted. Such discipline is actually not as unusual as some might think, even in Western (non-Orthodox) monasticism. The problem appears to be that nobody wants to bother to explain anything. Concern is automatically interpreted as rebellion, and austerity as totalitarianism. ::Father, The links to the video in question are at the top of this page. Many monks, bishops and saints suffered similar attacks, e.g., the trial of St. John Maximovitch in public court [http://saintjohnwonderworker.org/trial1.htm]. --[[User:Arbible|Arbible]] 15:15, February 10, 2006 (CST) :Ah, ok. Thanks - I thought those were just articles. No doubt, many have been persecuted wrongly, both for and by the church. Reading through, e.g., the articles linked from Pokrov, it seems to me that some of the criticisms, at least, are valid. I'm not sure simply crying "persecution" negates this. Of course, the devil wants to stir up confusion - no question about that. Living a holy life is a difficult thing - and the higher one seeks to ascend, the greater the dangers that lurk. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]] ::All this is, imho, getting away from the point - should the current controversy be posted on the St.Anthony's article page? ISTM that, given the lack of any externally verifiable evidence on either side, it would be best to post, both accusations and replies, firston the talk page to ensure neutrality (and then in the article after some time has passed). Unless others have superior ideas, of course -- {{User:Pistevo/sig}} 23:07, February 10, 2006 (CST) ::I think we shouldn't get too deep into the controversy on the main page - maybe just mention that some things are controversial, offer a list of issues, and include some links to both sides. That can be done in one paragraph + links. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]] == Protocols of the Elders of Zion == One Athonite monk has told me that the Protocols are second only to the Gospels in their popularity on Athos. Anti-semitism is alive and well in the heartland of Orthodox monasticism. It is a salutary reminder that we should not romanticize Athonite life. This side of the grave, the monks of Athos are sinners like the rest of us. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 12:59, February 18, 2006 (CST) ::That's sad to hear Fr. Lev, though I'm not too suprised (well, maybe by the ''second only to the Gosples part!''). I suppose it's part of Greek life generally, and I suppose that even deep prayer does not cleanse one of all "village ignorances" or certain other human failings and foibles." I do think it's possible to be very holy and wrong about some things at the same time! [[User:FrJohn|Fr.John]]