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''No, they demonstrate logic. The "Observations" clearly state that the reason the Liturgy is inadequate is that it does not EXPRESS the Orthodox doctrine. What you are saying is that the people don't need to HEAR the Orthodox doctrine so long as it is buried in the silent prayers. That is truly a heterodox attitude to the understanding of the lex orandi.'' --[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 22:58, July 18, 2008 (UTC)
::If the 1892 BCP were Orthodox in itself, there would have been no need for the Observations. If these fathers believed the BCP were incapable of becoming Orthodox, there would be no need for the Observations. And several of the cited prayers aren't "silent," unless one is reciting the Canon silently, which is not standard AWRV pratice. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:18, August 2, 2008 (UTC)
:The ''Observations'' -- which say the Gallican Liturgy makes reference to sacrifice only "somewhat vaguely" -- state the idea of sacrifice must be "inserted...into the rite of the Liturgy," though it does not specify the canon proper; the idea could be expressed, as in the Gallican Rite, in other places. In St. Tikhon's Liturgy, there is an abundance of sacrificial references in the canon and without. The priest's offertory prayers (specifically the ''In Spiritu Humilitatis'' and ''Veni Sanctificator'', as well as the ''Suscipe'')and the ''Orate, Fratres'' clearly call the Eucharist a "sacrifice." The priest also prays the ''Placeat Tibi'' before the blessing, beseeching, "grant that this sacrifice which I, unworthy that I am, have offered in the sight of Thy majesty, may be acceptable unto Thee...."
''...the text of the "consecration" in the LOST says: "for that thou, of thy tender mercy, didst give thine only Son Jesus Christ to suffer death upon the Cross for our redemption; who (by his own oblation of himself once offered) made a full, perfect, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, and satisfaction, for the sins of the whole world; and did institute, and in his holy Gospel command us to continue, a perpetual memory of that his precious death and sacrifice, until his coming again:"
This is *precisely* the Protestant teaching of the sacrifice of Christ: not a perpetual sacrifice, but a mere perpetual memorial of the one sacrifice, that of the cross. So much for the use of the word "sacrifice".''--[[User:JosephSuaiden|JosephSuaiden]] 22:58, July 18, 2008 (UTC)
::"The Eucharistic sacrifice is not a repetition of the Saviour’s Sacrifice on the Cross, but it is an offering of the sacrificed Body and Blood once offered by our Redeemer on the Cross, by Him Who 'is ever eaten, though never consumed.'" -- Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky, ''Orthodox Dogmatic Theology''. You may also wish to investigate the translation of the Greek term [[''anamnesis'']], which hardly rules out sacrifice. --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:18, August 2, 2008 (UTC)
: The ''Ecce Agnus Dei'' and added Pre-Communion Prayers make the Real Presence explicit - no Protestant or Zwinglian would be comfortable saying such things! Again, these are found in both TOM and the SASB.
"The English Liturgy" that is linked in the article bears little resemblance to the Liturgy of St Tikhon, and purports to be based on several sources -- the medieval Sarum, the 1549 BCP, a 1718 liturgy (?), etc. -- not the 1892 BCP that Moscow examined nor the 1928 on which the Liturgy of St Tikhon is actually based. While bracketing the question of the actual provenance of the "English Liturgy," it seems anachronistic at the very least to say that it has added all of the chnages required by the Commission, when the Commission didn't examine this particular mélange.
: Fr. Michael of St. Petroc monastery himself wrote The English Liturgy "was carried out strictly observing the terms of the 1907 report of the Commission of the Holy Synod of Russia, which fixed the method by which the services from the Book of Common Prayer might be adapted for use by Orthodox people." [http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/05/what-are-sarum-and-english-liturgies.html here] and [http://elyforum.yuku.com/forum/viewtopic/id/577 here] (original source). --[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 17:18, August 2, 2008 (UTC)
I've not run across references to the Liturgy of St Tikhon being approved by Moscow or Alexandria. Those would be good to see. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 15:46, July 2, 2008 (UTC)
