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"We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful." But here "stain" is translating culpae (guilt).
See the Latin: Declaramus, pronuntiamus et definimus doctrinam quae tenet beatissimam Virginem Mariam in primo instanti suae conceptionis fuisse singulari Omnipotentis Dei gratia et privilegio, intuitu meritorum Christi Jesu Salvatoris humani generis, '''ab omni originalis culpae labe praeservatam immunem''', esse a Deo revelatam, atque idcirco ab omnibus fidelibus firmiter constanterque credendam.
:Thank you Father, your frank and honest assessment is welcome. Thank you for backing up your refutation with clear examples. You are very right. However, the word "guilt" did not actually appear in the definition of the IC, it said stain. I wonder if the word "guilt" is used analogically. Or as the quotes in the article say, the western fathers and the eastern fathers were using the words sin and guilt in different ways. I personally have no problem with western fathers who used the word "guilt" in association with the doctrine of original sin because I know this does not mean "personal actual sin."
:Do you think that the Orthodox Council of Orange contained the idea of "inherited guilt"? I think it talks about an inherited fallen condition that affects each person on both the physical and spiritual level. So according to the fathers of Orange, original sin does not just causing physical death, as Fr Romanedies says, but also a spiritual condition necessitating prevenient grace. Failure to admit this is tantamount to pelagianism.
:Lastly, what about the problems with the last section. Is orthodoxwiki supposed to be a storehouse for quotes from the Vatican website? If this information could be rewritten so that it did not need to be quoted from directly and could be made to better suit the purposes of this encyclopedic article that would be good. For a good website that promotes the "pro-ancestral-sin" position, see: http://www.stmaryorthodoxchurch.org/orthodoxy/articles/ancestral_versus_original_sin. This article, though I don't necessarily agree with it, is more organized and coherent.
:Thanks again. --[[User:Ryan Close|Ryan Close]] ([[User talk:Ryan Close|talk]]) 22:05, March 30, 2018 (UTC)
