OrthodoxWiki:Trapeza/Archive 7

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Holy Trinity Metafor


Reading about the material universe, noticed that there are 3 infinities (or mysteries) that define our world:

1. --- The immensity of space-time, the boundless universe than nobody can say for sure how big it is, where it ends. Sure there are some theories that are accepted by most scientists, but also big anomalies if you apply the theory, that need to be corrected with inventions such as "dark matter" or "string theory" to fill in for obvious gaps.

2. --- The "small infinity" or mystery of the subatomic universe. We split the atoms in so many sub-particles, and the latest belief is that in fact all the matter is a concentration of energy. But where does matter end and pure energy begins?

I may be overcomplicating here, but it's just so poetic to notice how the science laws of the big universe and the small universe are in disagreement with each-other when it comes to apply the macrocosmos laws to microcosmos or the other way around, as if God intended things to be mysterious and impenetrable for the human mind.

3. --- The infinite complexity of life and intelligence. The connections in our brain are said to be more than all the stars in the universe. But how can this complexity come to be in only 4 billon years since our Earth is said to exist. This level of organisation of matter, first level: life, second level: intelligent life are both just unconceivable by science.

I want to ask you: could these 3 "infinities" be a reflection of the Holy Trinity in the material world? Or what is the theological view about those mysteries?

Thank you Mihai

New category

I was thinking of adding a category to be called "Propitiatory Offerings" where all of the things that are offered to God can be grouped together, inluding: Artoklasia, Kollyva, Proskomedia, Molieben, Incense, Myrrh, Votive Offerings, and things of this nature. Propitiatory Offerings in the Old Testament consisted mainly of sacrifices; in the Orthodox Church we have this new array of elements. Any ideas or comments? Is it accurate to describe it this way? Thanks and cheers. Angellight 888 20:34, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

Propitiation is a problematic concept for Orthodoxy and one I wouldn't be willing to endorse (e.g., I would never say, "We offer up incense as a propitiation to God"). That said, though, I've never heard of these things really being grouped together in traditional Orthodox writings. —Fr. Andrew talk contribs (THINK!) 14:05, May 19, 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification Father, cheers, Angellight 888 14:09, May 19, 2011 (UTC)

Calendar Days

Greetings. I had a look over at Wikipedia at their Orthodox "Calendar day" pages, and I liked how the pages were set up; instead of a block paragraph, with all the daily Saints blocked together as we have them here, they list them in a neatly ordered list (with bullets). This list could even be arranged chronologically for that particular day (i.e. with the oldest-in-time Saints listed first, the most recent saint for that day listed last).

Here is an example from Wikipedia for JUNE 4th. I would like to go into all of our Calendar Day pages for the entire year (all 365 days), and make the change form paragraph to list form, for ease of reading and better visual (and chronological) access. Would this be okay / sound good / any objections? (I don't mind doing the work). Cheers, Angellight 888 11:52, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

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JonathansCornerCom 12:11, August 17, 2011 (UTC)

It's been fixed. —Fr. Andrew talk contribs (THINK!) 18:20, August 17, 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! Great!

JonathansCornerCom 22:41, August 17, 2011 (UTC)

List of Enlighterners/Illuminators/Equals-to-the-Apostles

I realize that the purpose of the wiki structure is to allow anyone to edit. I hope OW will forgive my impertinence in merely suggesting (as opposed to creating myself) that it would be useful to have a list (or lists) corresponding to the different saint titles at illuminator .

I've thought of this because an LDS poster on a message board I frequent challenged non-LDS to name five of our own missionaries "whose exploits rival that of the LDS missionary work."

I think the OW category 'Missionaries' covers this with an extensive list. An article over a list of missionaries would be rather long! Wsk 01:22, September 18, 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for the response WSK! I'm not seeing the category for 'Missionaries'...what am I missing? Jkotinek 19:57, September 19, 2011 (UTC)
NM. Found it. = ) Jkotinek 20:00, September 19, 2011 (UTC)


Where may I find info abour Confession? I did a search for that subject & coldn't fnd it. After a long absence from Church, I returned in February 2012. I've had four o five cnfessions snce then. Every tme I try to confess, I'm often fogettng sins. Dad told me it's okay to say "I can't recall others, but I read that it's not ok May 12, 2012 Brooklyn, NY Thank you Irene Nikolsky

I think it's good to talk with a priest, but also you might find some helpful resources at http://stspress.com/ or http://svspress.com - — FrJohn (talk) 16:34, May 12, 2012 (HST)

Basic Information

Is there a website that helps people and/or teenagers with basic Q&As about our religion? I have teen son, who was baptized Orthodox. Because my church is in Russian he doesn't want to go. I thought if I could find basic info for him, then he'd believe me that there are English speaking Eastern Orthodox members. Thank you, Irene Nikolsky Broolyn, NY

Greetings Irene. Of course, there are A LOT of English-speaking (and non-Russian) Orthodox people -- For Q+A, you might try http://orthodoxanswers.org/ -- — FrJohn (talk)

Orthodox wiki stats

Is there a way to look at statistics for various pages by day, week, month, and year? --Kalvesmaki 16:03, May 17, 2012 (HST)

Diocese evolution in North America

One aspect that I have had in preparing my contributions to Orthodoxwiki concerns an accurate presentation of the ecclesiastical structure of the Orthodox in North America. While sources concerning the earliest century, notably in the OCA 1975 publication, give a fairly clear picture of the founding of dioceses and vicariates, the last century is blurred.

Various sources seem to present a good picture of the history of the structure of the Greek and Antiochian diocese, but the picture within the Russian based organizations gets blurred as the twentieth century progressed. The history of the Russian mission to North America seems clear to the first decade of the twentieth century when the Vicariates of Alaska and Brooklyn were formed. As hierarchs were installed with sees named Canada, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Winnipeg, Montreal, San Francisco, Detroit, Boston, and others through the time of the Metropolia, apparently as Vicariates of the North American Diocese that commonly was called the Metropolia. The formation of any of these Vicariates as Dioceses came apparently only after the granting of autocephaly to the the "Metropolia" and, thus, bishops of these sees prior to 1970 were apparently "titular/vicar/assistant bishops, not diocesan bishops. A question in my mind is, were the bishops of the "ethnic dioceses" vicars or ruling bishops?

The picture for bishops and dioceses of ROCOR in North America is less clear as to when the "titular" sees ceased being "titular" and may have become real dioceses.

Recent updates to articles about North American dioceses makes necessary a clear understanding of the evolution of the North American ecclesiastical structure so that Orthodoxwiki articles don't imply existence of dioceses before they came into existence.

The above is my assumption of the history of the development of the dioceses in North America. Sources/references and text within articles that clarifies the evolution of the North American structure are needed to assure accuracy in the articles. Wsk 05:07, September 12, 2012 (HST)

GOARCH link URLs format

One thing I'm constantly running into (and correcting as I go along) is the format of URLs leading to GOARCH's Online Chapel Saints pages being out of date (and leading to the "that page doesn't exist" message). They have changed formats at least once (maybe twice based on what I've seen here), and unfortunately, they haven't set any redirects, whether programmatically or via HTTP 301. (I've thought about contacting them about it, but haven't gotten up the nerve to do so)


I've pondered a bit about what should be done here. Obviously, one thing -- which I'm already doing -- is making the necessary correction every time I see one on a page. However, that's just a few out of the potentially hundreds of outdated links there could be. Something else could be developing a bot that would search all pages and update the links automatically. I don't know how to do that, but I know what they'd need to do. Anyways, I just wanted to bring it to everyone's (in particular the sysops') attention, as this is (warning: assumptions lie ahead) a widespread problem, and a potential hindrance from people getting the proper information (i.e. not knowing how to get to the right URL, or just giving up and saying "oh well, another bad link"). It may seem like a small thing, but it definitely means a lot to me, as I would hate for people to not be able to easily get to the information they need.

If I can help, other than my edit-one-when-I-see-it method, just let me know. Phil Harwell (paharwell) 08:36, December 11, 2012 (HST)

Canonicity of Revelation

27 January 2013

I am in research on a book dealing with the issues surrounding the acceptance of the book of Revelation into the New Testament. (Definitely not an exegetical commentary – there are many hundreds of them already!) I would appreciate some advice on a specific area of research that is giving me difficulty: the history of Revelation’s acceptance in the Eastern church in the 2nd through 5th centuries, and perhaps later. In publications I have found so far, there is sometimes a distinction drawn between the acceptance of Revelation in early Western vs Eastern Christianity: acceptance was much more rapid and widespread in the West. I have yet to find, however, much insight into why acceptance was slower in the East. What was the nature of the misgivings that the fathers of the Eastern church evidently had? Who, by name, expressed those misgivings? When, how, and under what circumstances? What finally prompted the Eastern Christian churches to accept Revelation? Did they do so gladly or grudgingly? How do Orthodox Christians tend to see Revelation today? Is it often preached? Were there other issues or background that I seem not to have contemplated? Can you recommend books or articles that address these matters?

To hit only some highlights, these are factors that perturbed the acceptance of Revelation in the Western church; perhaps they were voiced in the Eastern church as well:

• Questions of apostolicity.

o Revelation was probably written about 95 A.D. The disciple John (son of Zebedee) would have been quite old at this time, beyond normal life expectancy. There is reason to believe he died about 70 A.D.

o The Greek language of Revelation is quite different from the Greek of the Fourth Gospel, strongly indicating they could not have been written by the same person.

o John bar Zebedee was not known to have had an oversight responsibility of the seven churches to whom Revelation was addressed.

• Questions of orthodoxy.

o Revelation shares characteristics with many Gnostic writings, especially in its good-evil dualism and its frequent focus on secret knowledge.

o Revelation speaks of the Millennium, the thousand-year period after Christ’s return when all believers live happily with Him on earth before the final confrontation with Satan. This concept is absent from the Gospels and Epistles, and it is one of the reasons that Cerinthus (active in Asia Minor at the time Revelation was written there) was declared a heretic.

o It is not difficult to read in Revelation a theology of salvation by works rather than of salvation by grace through faith in Christ.

Any insights or recommendations on the Orthodox perspective on the canonicity of Revelation would be most welcome. I expect to be in research for the rest of 2013, with writing in early 2014.

Thanks very much

David in Lexington, VA

Mullerjrd 13:43, January 27, 2013 (HST)
Hi David, Unfortunately I don't have any resources in mind (you might check more general Orthodox sources on Scripture). Basically, we do accept Revelation as a canonical book, but we do not read it liturgically and so it is relatively unemphasized (but still significant!). We do not accept "millennialism" and are basically "amillennial". I wonder if anyone else knows of specific resources that might be helpful? — FrJohn (talk) 21:43, January 31, 2013 (HST)

Bible Text

I was thinking what if we had the LXX bible on OrthodoxWiki, so you could read the bible used by the Orthodox on this site. -ShenLazar 02:18, August 21, 2013 (HST)

Hi ShenLazar, I don't think this belongs on OrthodoxWiki, although it would be a great project for another site. Various versions of the LXX (Greek, English translations, etc.) are available elsewhere. There are links at Septuagint. Difficulties of putting the text here include the question of which translation to use, as well as copyright restrictions on some of the better ones. A more extensive article with links and a good evaluation of the differences between translations could be helpful though. — FrJohn (talk) 23:20, August 24, 2013 (HST)

Is Revelations 21:27 a good proof of Purgatory?

According to Revelations 21:27, "But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or cause an abomination or lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life"

Q: This verse seems to be supporting the idea of Purgatory that we must be "purified" or "cleansed" before we enter the Kingdom of God. What's the Orthodox belief/perspective of this verse?

Upcoming council

Ecumenical This upcoming council has been preemptively and prematurely called ecumenical by the press. I'm interested in seeing if this wiki has info on it. I figured that an article here would probably be the best Orthodox perspective. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 23:47, March 10, 2014 (PDT)

No info here that I know of -- I don't think we are great at breaking news. I would just say, however, that there are two senses of ecumenical at play here. I believe the council may be called "ecumenical" in a soft sense, i.e. universal. But this does not automatically give it an authority equivalent to the "Ecumenical Councils" - — FrJohn (talk)

OrthodoxWiki in Serbian

First - hello to everyone, as I am quite new here.


I saw that there is a designated space for this Wiki in Serbian language, but there are no articles at all. I would love to help here and I think that that would be the best way I could help, since Serbian is my native language. So, I was wondering can I start working on that and if I can, if there is anyone who want and can help? --Erin Navan 00:38, April 15, 2014 (PDT)

Crucifixion of Christ

Hey guys, do we have an article on the crucifixion and death of Christ? The only thing I can find is Holy Week and the Exaltation of Christ. ShenLazar 16:22, April 23, 2014 (PDT)

Infobox for saints

Wikipedia has an infobox for saints where you can get details like birth, death, feast days, etc. very easily (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_saint). Would this be something that OrthdoxWiki could implement? I tried using this code here, but it doesn't seem to have whatever is needed under the hood to make it work. Thanks! Angelina123 14:24, June 9, 2014 (PDT)

St. John of Chicago

I've been doing some poking around into the history of the Orthodox Church in Chicago and the parishes that St. John of Chicago founded. I have a question regarding this. Fr. John spent a dozen years in the US, and it looks like he consistently spelled his last name "Kochuroff". This is how it is listed in the 1900 US census, and all the contemporaneous newspaper articles, and even his son's birth certificate. Doing a Newspaper Archive, the first use that shows up as "Kochurov" is in 1994. I know this shift is due to the change in Russian transliteration over the years, but being as the "V" ending is not how he spelled his name I was wondering if we really ought to go back to that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Katjuscha (talkcontribs) .

Information on Bishop of Jerusalem


I am interested in finding information on John VIII (1106-1156) Bishop of Jerusalem. I wanted to know if at that time he was actually in Jerusalem or exiled in Constantinople because of the Crusaders? I have read that there was a strong relationship with the Lavra of San Savvas and the Crusaders at that time. Was wondering if he may have actually been there instead of Jerusalem.

Thank you,

Tom Tompkt 18:41, January 8, 2015 (PST)

As far as I can tell, he would have been in exile, though I couldn't find anything specific to him.
"At first, the crusaders treated the native Orthodox population of Antioch and Jerusalem with a degree of toleration. Since Patriarch Symeon of Jerusalem had died in exile in Cyprus, the crusaders appointed a Latin, Arnold of Choques, to the Patriarchate. When he died after a few months, his successor, Daimbert of Pisa threw the Orthodox out of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, called the Church of the Resurrection by the Orthodox. Significantly, the Holy Fire refused to appear on Holy Saturday, 1101, until he invited the Orthodox clergy to the ceremony. As a result, he adopted a more tolerant policy toward the native Orthodox of the Holy Land where the Orthodox clergy served under the Latin Patriarch."
The Historic Church: An Orthodox View of Christian History by Archpriest John W. Morris, p. 161
(Emphasis mine; Patr. Symeon was a predecessor of John VIII.)
"The Orthodox, however, also maintained a succession of patriarchs in exile in Cyprus and Constantinople (see Table 1). Only one of these, Leontius II, actually visited Jerusalem during the period of Crusader occupation..." :::The Churches of the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem: Volume 3, the City of Jerusalem: A Corpus by Denys Pringle, p. 3.
I wasn't able to find very much else online, other than a reference to Ἡ ἔκταση τῆς ἐξουσίας ἑνὸς ὑπερόριου πατριάρχη: ὁ πατριάρχης Ἀντιοχείας στὴν Κωνσταντινούπολη τὸν 12ο αἰώνα , pp. 98ff. by Κ.Γ. Πιτσάκης regarding the word ὑπερόριος (in exile, as compared to titular). Hope that helps. —magda (talk) 22:16, January 8, 2015 (PST)

Saint Menas


I have recently been reading about Saint Menas and his story of martyrdom. I was wondering if someone could expound on his history. I know that he had an important vision and suffered some horrible tortures while declaring his Christianity. I read among the tortures that he "had his tongue torn out by the roots". Christianity in the Land of the Pharaohs by Jill Kamil, p119 Also, that his father Audexios had died when he was 14 and his mother prayed for a son and her wish was granted. He seems to be a very important person who we are not informed of enough.

Thank you,

Tom Tompkt 08:57, January 10, 2015 (PST)