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Talk:Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow

3,998 bytes added, 14:15, June 26, 2008
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:The use of "some" is misleading; all recommendations for the liturgy (and hours) were made by both Antioch and ROCOR (and Alexandria, and Moscow).
:Certain [i]''vagantes[/i] '' use this language to cast aspersions on the Liturgy of St. Tikhon, claiming it is invalid, because it did not implement all the recommendations of the 1904 Observations...which is false. - [[User: Willibrord]] 
Only SOME of the changes were made; that is a simple fact. I am not a vagante nor have I claimed the liturgy in question is "invalid," but one need not make false claims such as the one that ALL of the recommendations were adopted. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 17:34, February 13, 2008 (PST) Before Willbrord changes my edits again, perhaps he could read the ''Observations'' and compare them to the liturgy. --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 07:07, February 14, 2008 (PST)
I have three basic responses. First, without going into how Orthodox Christians should act, one should – on a purely secular level -- note that attributing malice as a possible motive is not a good way to foster communication or progress in the editing of articles, not to mention bad manners.
:Your comments were erroneous enough only to proceed from one or the other source, as they were belied by their own alleged sources. It is certainly bad manners to take pains to misrepresent the situation in other jurisdictions or confuse others about the canonical status of one's own jurisdiction. Second, since last writing about this, I have obtained a copy of the OM. I think it is superior to the SASB in numerous ways. That being said, I still find the attempt to marginalize the SASB as “a parish prayer book” a little puzzling. Despite previous denials, the SASB is an authorized book of the Antiochian Archdiocese as clearly indicated by the letter from Metropolitan Philip included in the front of the book. There is no relevant difference in the wording of the Metropolitan’s letter in the OM from his letter in the SASB.  :The Metropolitan's letter at the front of ''TOM'' states, "These approved texts are the exclusive use of our Archdiocese." There is no similar statement in his letter in the SASB, nor has he amended his letter in any subsequent edition of ''TOM'', as you can now verify.  Someone in the AWRV may not like the SASB, but to suggest (as has been done before) that the SASB is not an authorized service book it to imply that the Metropolitan of the Antiochian Archdiocese does not have the authority to decide which service books are approved, or that perhaps he is acting “in ignorance or malice.” None of these possibilities are plausible.  :On the contrary, it is you who rob the Antiochians of the right to determine their practice. The Archdiocese administers the Western Rite through the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate, which prescribes ''The Orthodox Missal'' as its exclusive use unless explicit written permission is given. This is neither controversial nor hard to understand. It misrepresents the situation tremendously to constantly point to a parish prayer book all-but-unused in the AWRV as though it were the equal of its actual practice. :Noting the SASB was designed as a parish prayer book is but noting a fact; presumably this explains why it does not includes the priest's silent prayers and other information necessary to celebrate Mass.
Third, as to the claim that all of the additions recommended by the Russian Commission’s Observations have been made to the Liturgy of St Tikhon and to the hours, an evaluation of the claim requires more than a checklist of items mentioned in the concluding paragraph. One must read what comes before that paragraph to understand the context of the additions.
:You've added nothing from that section of the Observations that contradicts the '''fact''' that ALL recommendations about the Hours and Liturgy have been fulfilled.
As for the invocation of the Saints, I did in fact quote from the principal intercessions of the Liturgy, i.e., in the prayer “for the whole state of Christ’s Church,” the complete reference – “blessed Mary and all Thy Saints….”
:And conveniently elided several others. How odd.
Moreover, the Observations – in the section on Morning and Evening Prayer –say: “But at the same time, while the recourse in prayer to the Most Holy Mother of God, to the Angel Hosts, and to the illustrious saints, the glorification and invocation of them, forms an essential part of Orthodox and Catholic worship, these things are entirely foreign to Anglican worship. It is absolutely necessary that there should be introduced into this worship some such prayers (or hymns) in one or another form and degree.”
While the OM doesn’t include these hours, the SASB does contain Matins and Vespers, and neither has any additions of prayers or hymns to meet this requirement, which was termed “absolutely necessary” by the Commission. This one requirement that is clearly unmet falsifies the claim that “all” of the changes demanded by the Commission were made.
:False (once again), both about the SASB and AWRV practice in general. Regarding the SASB, apparently you missed the concluding prayer of Vespers, which begs "''the intercession of the blessed and glorious Mary, ever-Virgin Mother of God, of blessed Joseph, of Thy blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, of blessed Andrew, and of all the Saints''" - odd, since it's clearly printed in the SASB. (It also prays for the day when "all adversity and error being done away with.") More to the point, AWRV missions typically conclude Morning Prayer and Evensong by singing the appropriate Marian antiphon. This is prescribed in ''St. Dunstan's Psalter'', used by every St. Tikhon Liturgy parish with which I'm familiar, prescribed even before its publication in [ the Office presented by Fr. Nicholas Alford at St. Gregory the Great AWRV Church], and it was not an innovation then. This is the AWRV's standard practice. (Some parishes also pray the Rosary or saints' litanies immediately following the Hours, or at another time.)  A similar complaint and requirement is made concerning the Great Litany. The Observations say, “But examining it in connection with its origin, and comparing it with the Roman Catholic Litany from which it was derived, again under Lutheran influence, we clearly discern its protestant character, in that it does not contain the invocation of the Mother of God, of the spiritual Hosts and the Saints, who occupy a very prominent place amongst the Catholics, and even had a place (like prayers for the dead) in the first edition of 1544, though only in an abbreviated form in the shape of an invocation of saints en bloc, without particularizing names. In case of any full restoration of Orthodox beliefs, it would be timely and expedient to bring in again both the invocations and the prayers, as being characteristic of this kind of devotion."
Yet when one turns to the Great Litany (SASB, 51-55), one finds no mention of the Mother of God, the spiritual Hosts, or the Saints.
:The Great Litany is neither an Hour nor a Liturgy, and your mentioning in this regard only muddies the waters. However to swing at this particular pitch-in-the-dirt, ''The Orthodox Ritual'', the form authorized by the AWRV for use in parishes, includes the traditional Litany of the Saints, wherein the saints and angels commemorated run more than three columns. It also includes various other saints' litanies.
:Of course, the SASB contains other prayers/invocations of the saints as part of its "Prayers and Thanksgivings" section, pp. 27-44.
As for the Confiteor, this is not a part of the liturgy proper (it comes before the Introit), and it has never been a part of any Book of Common Prayer, much less the 1892 BCP referenced in the Observations. Simply adding a Roman prayer (one that is foreign to the Anglican rite) does not seem adequate. Moreover, why borrow a Roman prayer to make the BCP more Orthodox? A mention of the Mother of God, one angel, and three saints (John the Baptist, Peter, & Paul in the SASB Confiteor on pp. 61-62) seems less robust that “the glorification and invocation” of “the Most Holy Mother of God, … the Angel Hosts, and … the illustrious saints.” --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 15:42, June 25, 2008 (UTC)
:The ''Confiteor'' is part of what is known as "The Prayers at the Foot of the Altar," a part of Western Rite liturgies and is clearly printed in the SASB. If the 1892 BCP were itself sufficient, there would have been no need for the ''Observations''. (You may be interested to know most Anglo-Catholic parishes had already reinserted this prayer into the BCP liturgy at the time of the ''Observations''.)
:...'''And then there are those three other prayers I mentioned''', which invoke a total of 18 saints (if I've counted right), which you omitted from your response. How odd. You've also conceded the sacrificial aspect of this discussion,as you've not offered any defense of your previous erroneous assertion.
:At any rate, I hope the moderators agree that I've made more than a compelling case.--[[User:Willibrord|Willibrord]] 14:15, June 26, 2008 (UTC)
== Differences between the Orthodox Missal and the St Andrew's Service Book ==
To repeat a question I posted on another page: since Willbrord has made a point of saying that almost all AWRV parishes use the ''Orthodox Missal'' and not the ''St Andrew's Service Book'', perhaps he would be kind enough to specify what differences there are between the versions of the two eucharistic liturgies and why they matter, i.e., why is the OM version so preferable to the SASB? --[[User:Fr Lev|Fr Lev]] 07:05, February 14, 2008 (PST)

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