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287 bytes added, 04:48, August 24, 2006
== Real Presence ==
Could somebody write a good article on exactly what the Real Presence is according to Orthodoxy? I find this article here unilluminating and the External link on the matter confusing. [[User:Willibald|Willibald]] 21:48, August 16, 2006 (CDT)
:I just bumped this to the top for more notice. [[User:Willibald|Willibald]] 23:48, August 23, 2006 (CDT)
==Christian Eucharist = Jewish Passover? ==
I have some difficulty with parts of this article, especially the "Background" section. First is the claim that the Last Supper was a Passover meal. While this seems to be the acount given by the Synoptic Gospels, the Gospel of John is quite clear that it is not a Passover meal, as Jesus is on the Cross while the lambs are being slain for the Passover meal. Moreover, even the Synoptic accounts say that the bread was leavened (artos), as opposed to the unleavened bread required for Passover.
Second, I would eliminate the idea that the Passover meal was transformed by Christ -- not only because I don't think it was a Passover meal, but also because the Jewish people still celebrate the Passover meal.
: John's account makes more liturgical sense, as well, because in his telling, the Pharisees take care of their business with Christ ''before'' the year's biggest liturgical celebration ("because that Sabbath was a high day"). (They would have been ritually unclean had they done it during the feast.) Christ dies right when the Passover lambs are being slaughtered in preparation for the feast, thus signifying that He is the new Passover lamb. {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 17:18, January 26, 2006 (CST)
====Re:Christian Eucharist IS Pascha IS the Jewish Passover - one view ====
It is a happy coincidence that in Greek ''pascha'' (Passover) is related to ''paschw'' (to suffer). I think you guys are missing the major connection here between Passover/Pascha and the Eucharist. The whole thing is a re-presentation of the sacrifice of Christ. In Western Liturgy (Western rite?) - the priest says "Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast." The anaphoras of the East are no different in this emphasis. The historical problem of the two chronologies is solved if the Gospels are read typologically. Eucharist IS Pascha IS Passover. {{User:FrJohn/sig}}
: Perhaps there is a misunderstanding here. I think the point is that the Eucharist (and the Last Supper which began it) is '''not a seder''', because Pascha ''replaces'' Passover. Thus, to say that the Eucharist is not a Passover meal is simply to say that it is not merely a perpetuation of the Jewish feast. The Passover and its seder have been fulfilled and transformed into Pascha and the Eucharist. The Christian practice is not simply a disguised Jewish one. {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 05:42, January 27, 2006 (CST)
====Eucharist = Agape, too? (The evangelical view) ====
::Hmm... I think the picture is more complex than this. I'm appealing to Melito here, and the early Christian "love feasts." Not only that, but I should remind everyone that the phrase, perhaps inserted in '72 (I don't know), "Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us: therefore let us keep the feast" comes from 1 Cor. 5. I honestly don't see how someone could deny that as a Eucharistic reference, especially as 1 Cor 10 looms right around the corner. I wouldn't say "disguised", or even necessarily "replaces" but I do like "fulfills". I'm not sure what is at stake in this point for you both? I'm probably oversensitive, but I can't help but feel a certain anti-semitism here - by which I mean, not that you don't like Jews, but that you are too quickly discounting the truly Jewish character of the early Church and its liturgical life. {{User:FrJohn/sig}}
::: Well, I'd be surprised if I said that, as well! :) My reference to the "privileging" of John's Gospel is simply that our Holy Week is laid out the way it is. That is, its commemorations are based on John's chronology and not on that of the Synoptics. {{User:ASDamick/sig}} 12:05, January 28, 2006 (CST)
====ReThe Orthodox view====
I am not trying to drive a wedge between Pascha and the Eucharist. They are not unrelated. However, I would stand by my claim that the article is misleading on this point. The Last Supper was unlikely to have been a Passover meal. The eucharistic texts of the early Church make it clear that they did not derive from seder texts and that Passover imagery wasn't used. Thus to claim, as this article does, that the Eucharist is simly the seder "transformed" and that the themes of the seder are therefore the themes of the Eucharist is misleading, at best. By idnetifying a minor theme as a major, even exclusive one, it distorts the actual history and practice of the Church's Eucharist. I think there is more to be found in the Jewish Day of Atonement than in the Passover for understanding our Lord's death and resurrection, as well as the mystery of the Eucharist. My point here is related to the one I made regarding the symbolism of the Little Entrance, and what Fr John had to say on that discussion page about [[NPOV]].
BTW, I don't believe that the use of the "Christ our Passover" at the fraction of the 1979 Episcopal ''Book of Common Prayer'' represents ancient pratice; it certainly isn't known from the first several centuries that I am talking about. -- Fr Lev
== Real Presence ==
Could somebody write a good article on exactly what the Real Presence is according to Orthodoxy? I find this article here unilluminating and the External link on the matter confusing. [[User:Willibald|Willibald]] 21:48, August 16, 2006 (CDT)

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